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alexthegrrr8

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I agree with some of this but very little.

These salmon are mainly sterile and as such only a minuscule percentage actually spawn - I was told .01% but dont quote me on this.

Second I disagree that all fish are snagged there. If you fish a roe bag although it is possible for a fish to swim by it with an open mouth and become "snagged" it is unlikely. Guys that use trebles snag fish. I dont like the fact that people leave their garbage around the river, I dont like the fact that people gut salmon and throw them on the banks to rot, but not all people fishing this stretch of river are snaggers!

Also you really generalize all salmon fisherman. Now I know you aren't exactly the most active member of this forum but I also know that you are a salmon fisher yourself. So I ask do you fall under this category?

Actually, the number of wild fish out of north shore tribs is much higher, around the 60% mark according to most recent studies. You can get some more detailed numbers from alot of the guys out of the CRAA. With the reduction in stocking, and the increase in atlantics, tighter regs should be placed on Kings if fishermen would like to see them continue.

Salmon have had a "put and take" reputation in Lake O for years, but there has been a major increase in wild reproduction since the 90's, so hopefully that reputation changes.....because the stocking numbers have definately changed.

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Actually, the number of wild fish out of north shore tribs is much higher, around the 60% mark according to most recent studies. You can get some more detailed numbers from alot of the guys out of the CRAA. With the reduction in stocking, and the increase in atlantics, tighter regs should be placed on Kings if fishermen would like to see them continue.

Salmon have had a "put and take" reputation in Lake O for years, but there has been a major increase in wild reproduction since the 90's, so hopefully that reputation changes.....because the stocking numbers have definately changed.

If this is scientific data then stiffen up the regs, but I know 4-5 years ago I spoke to a CO at the sportsman show or fishing show and specifically asked why the regs werent tighter for salmon. His answer was that very few actually spawn - less than 1%

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I was there today in the lower end and 2 guys were trespassing in the lower end on shore. They left when i told them they were trespassing and then a guy from the City of Oakville showed up to clean up the garbage, remove the lawn chairs and take pictures. The pictures are going to the MNR as it appears that Oakville wants this poaching/trespassing/littering to stop. Then 2 more guys came along and we had words since they were also trespassing, this time on private property. They felt that since they were standing ankle deep in the water they were legally allowed to fish because of that fact. I left but the guy from the city returned and apparently these two Clarence Darrows decided to flee. I saw the original two guys from the morning and this time they decided to throw stones at me for some reason (I think they think i ratted them out to the city guy) We had words and they threatened violence which was sort of commical. Then there was one more guy working his way downstream until I explained the trespassing facts and he reluctantly decided to do as I suggested and call the Halton cops to confirm the rules. Just a small point. Private property owners do NOT have to post with a no trespassing sign for their property to be respected by anglers and hunters but it would be nice if they did post it to clarify the situation. The city guy says that the City of Oakville is going to close the parking lot to Petro Canada Park shortly to slow the poaching/littering, snagging etc. Soon this area will return to being a no fishing zone because of the shore anglers that behave so badly in this park area. I know one should not generalize but shore anglers leave telltale signs everywhere they are found be it garbage, slit fish, vandalized property etc. Some guys down there might think they are fishing ethically but any proper angler knows that what is going on in Petro Park and south is snagging pure and simple and the main reason for it is the same issue it always is. These are bait anglers seeking roe for trout fishing, somthing else that should not be permitted especially in a large urban centre like the GTA. Snidley

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I was there today in the lower end and 2 guys were trespassing in the lower end on shore. They left when i told them they were trespassing and then a guy from the City of Oakville showed up to clean up the garbage, remove the lawn chairs and take pictures. The pictures are going to the MNR as it appears that Oakville wants this poaching/trespassing/littering to stop. Then 2 more guys came along and we had words since they were also trespassing, this time on private property. They felt that since they were standing ankle deep in the water they were legally allowed to fish because of that fact. I left but the guy from the city returned and apparently these two Clarence Darrows decided to flee. I saw the original two guys from the morning and this time they decided to throw stones at me for some reason (I think they think i ratted them out to the city guy) We had words and they threatened violence which was sort of commical. Then there was one more guy working his way downstream until I explained the trespassing facts and he reluctantly decided to do as I suggested and call the Halton cops to confirm the rules. Just a small point. Private property owners do NOT have to post with a no trespassing sign for their property to be respected by anglers and hunters but it would be nice if they did post it to clarify the situation. The city guy says that the City of Oakville is going to close the parking lot to Petro Canada Park shortly to slow the poaching/littering, snagging etc. Soon this area will return to being a no fishing zone because of the shore anglers that behave so badly in this park area. I know one should not generalize but shore anglers leave telltale signs everywhere they are found be it garbage, slit fish, vandalized property etc. Some guys down there might think they are fishing ethically but any proper angler knows that what is going on in Petro Park and south is snagging pure and simple and the main reason for it is the same issue it always is. These are bait anglers seeking roe for trout fishing, somthing else that should not be permitted especially in a large urban centre like the GTA. Snidley

Well said Snidley :huh: I just don't get people now a day's, it's like they all have this Bart Simpson virus that makes them completely stupid to the rules, the I didn't know or I didnt do it antic isn't going to cut anymore. I'm tired of this doo-doo and the only reason I go down to Petro anymore is to bust the A-HOLES that fish illegally. Ahhh thank god for camcorders, they never lie........

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you got to think about how many eggs a female salmon has...hundreds .let's say 200 females make it and spawn successfully and the eggs hatch... i know like 2 % of all of one female salmons young make it to the lake but still if a lot come in a lot come out...

also how is the regular drift for bronte? , i was there a week ago and i guy had countless hook ups drifting with roe and a float reel

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Limiting a spawn to 1000 fish is going to produce a very small year class one that faces even more risk due to limited genetics as well . Currently I would be supprised if there is a 2500 fish run in Bronte today, much less if many many more fish do not turn up this year. There are many variables in Salmon reproduction but I believe that 1000 spawning fish (means at least 2000 fish including males) would be a low year and I think current harvest (more like pointless slaughter)is not going to result in 1000 spawners this year. This is all beside the illegality of course. Snidley

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I still want to know if it's "legal" to head down in that area in a float tube without touching shore??? I've always enjoyed catching fish in my float tube, but want to know if i'm "legal" :(

Yes.

Actually, the number of wild fish out of north shore tribs is much higher, around the 60% mark according to most recent studies.

Don't believe everything that's spoon fed to you by Atlantic-centric biologists with their own personal agendas. For the last two years every stocked chinook has been fin clipped so the real numbers will be known soon. I look forward to the back pedaling.

Salmon have had a "put and take" reputation in Lake O for years, but there has been a major increase in wild reproduction since the 90's, so hopefully that reputation changes.....because the stocking numbers have definately changed.

Stocking numbers haven't changed for more than a decade, Ontario's quota for Lake O has/is around 500,000-600,000/yr (compared to NYS 2.5mil, though alot of years they don't make quota). Bronte gets around 25,000-30,000.

Oh yeah Snidely, stopped by BPS today and I think they're selling Nitro Minnows in your favourite Ghost Shad again (dark roach back with a purple tint to the belly?).

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ok this is the same debate we get into every year. If you catch a salmon in the river its snagging, i dont care if its in the mouth or not its snagging these fish arent eating, their intestines, and all the necessary organs to digest food withers away and the reproductive organs mature. besides salmon go to spawn and die, dont get me wrong im all about conservation, but the reason to alot of these guy that snag or go down there with saltwater rods and hooks that would kill a wale is they dont know any better or they have been fishing like that for 50 years. everyone on here has im sure taught themselves how to fish correctly, and fish being more conservative. Iv talked to older fisherman and they all say the same thing and i quot "we all used to fish like this (meaning 7 ft meat stick and 50 lbs line and big hooks with yarn on them and a 3 oz sinker) and there weren't as many regulations and rules there was now" but my point is they have just gotten used to a way of fishing these fish... now the younger people they get into fishing they see these guys fishing and hooking fish left and right even though its in the butt or tail or stomach, then they see the proper fisherman not hooking as many and or as frequent so they go get the same set up as the other guys and a hole new generation starts fishing that way or their relatives or family fishes that particular way.. its just they dont or didnt have anyone to teach them the right way to catch these fish. then you have your foreigners that come to canada and have a joy gasem when they see these fish in ankle high water and stand in the rivers with net and kick them on shore iv seen this happen 4 russain guys kicking fish on shore and they were fresh of the banana boat lol,, what i think we need is for a reliable fishing club to start up or if there is one already to help teach and educate people on the right way of fishing and conservation. basically hold classes and maybe join up with bass pros and sell cheaper rods and reals to help those who cant affored.. or something... all i know is that i was fortunate enough to have family that fish right and care about the future of fishing im 24 years old and i would like to take my son when i have him fishing for salmon one day and he will learn the right way to fish... ok im done haha

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Not going to get involved in this "debate" cuz its the same one every year. :(:worthy:

What you are describing is more an aggressive strike, where the male/female will try to move the offending object out of the way.---------I think.

But dont Bass. Pke, Trout, Walleye etc. all react the same way at times.

Centre_Pin_Assasin: you are making some generalizations there, 1 - there are fresh run fish mixed with ones that are half way through the cycle mixed with ones that are "dying".

2 - not everyone fishes the way you describe. I personally have never fished with the "2X4's" never used more than 10# line, never had anything but an egg hook with a roe bag on the line, and have not snagged a fish one the back, tail, stomach etc. Not everyone slits their bellies and collects the eggs.

I am not trying to justify fishing there because I dont, and havent for years. But see things with an open mind...

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That Ghost colour of Nitro minnow is my current favorite but the all time best colour was the Purple ghost colour which was similar with a purple back on it. It was a killer on all species but especially on Salmon and Steelhead in gin clear lake water. Unfortunately for the last 2 years the lake salmon bite is virtually non exhistant . Snidley

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i totally agree with C_P_A and i have seen stuff that would make some ppl skin crawl. ont time at bronte i foound a spot wherer some ppl dumped 200-300 bodies heads and tails of fish in the woods. they used two hockey nets and what looked to be a tennis or badminton net i don't know how many guys there were but they did pretty good. i have seen guys using buckets, nets, rocks, trolling rods, mooching rods, braided line that looked like a small rope, steel line, leadcore line, and best of all some guys even tried a pellet gun, to catch some salmon. most years i went fishing creeks and rivers near by the loogans out numbered the guys really trying to land a fish legally. it's that time of year again the circus is back in town and it gets better and better each year. i think i am going to stick to fishing the spring, summer and fall for bass, walleye, pike, brown and rainbow trout and best of all i got the itch for steelhead fishing now. that's my 2 cents.

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I went down yesterday, and checked again.

There are no signs, no fence, and no indication that you are on private property and therfore trespassing south of Rebecca Street.

The only way you can be charged is if you were asked to leave and you do not leave.

If anyone was ticketed and charged and not given a warning to leave it will not stand up in court.

If the city and citizens are so concerned then what does it take to put up a damn sign.

The only sign there is an old sign indicating that it is a fish sanctuary that we all know is no longer valid.

There are at least a dozen signs of all types on your way down into the Petro Park lot.

There is also a sign indicating that there is no pedestrian acces from the stairs leading up from the botttom of the Rebecca bridge.

BUT there is no indication at all that you are trespassing.

Read the act below it clearly spells out what needs to happen before you can be charged.

And in this case ignorance of the law does not apply.

I am aware of what the trespass law states.

The law is clear.

Ther are a number of ways to check if you are tresspassing:

The property must be posted; or

There needs to be some type of a structure such as a fence; or red paint with a sign indicating a boundary, or

The property needs to be maintained such as appearing to be cultivated,

such as a farm, orchard, etc. or

Or you must be asked to leave by a property owner or a person of authority such as a police officer or security guard.

None of these exist in this area.

Therefore I was not trespassing.

If you would like to educate yourself some more read here:

Trespass to Property Act

R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER T.21

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/...tes_90t21_e.htm

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Definitions

1. (1) In this Act,

“occupier” includes,

(a) a person who is in physical possession of premises, or

(:) a person who has responsibility for and control over the condition of premises or the activities there carried on, or control over persons allowed to enter the premises,

even if there is more than one occupier of the same premises; (“occupant”)

“premises” means lands and structures, or either of them, and includes,

(a) water,

(:D ships and vessels,

© trailers and portable structures designed or used for residence, business or shelter,

(d) trains, railway cars, vehicles and aircraft, except while in operation. (“lieux”) R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 1 (1).

School boards

(2) A school board has all the rights and duties of an occupier in respect of its school sites as defined in the Education Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 1 (2).

Trespass an offence

2. (1) Every person who is not acting under a right or authority conferred by law and who,

(a) without the express permission of the occupier, the proof of which rests on the defendant,

(i) enters on premises when entry is prohibited under this Act, or

(ii) engages in an activity on premises when the activity is prohibited under this Act; or

(B)does not leave the premises immediately after he or she is directed to do so by the occupier of the premises or a person authorized by the occupier,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $2,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 2 (1).

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I went down yesterday, and checked again.

There are no signs, no fence, and no indication that you are on private property and therfore trespassing south of Rebecca Street.

The only way you can be charged is if you were asked to leave and you do not leave.

If anyone was ticketed and charged and not given a warning to leave it will not stand up in court.

If the city and citizens are so concerned then what does it take to put up a damn sign.

The only sign there is an old sign indicating that it is a fish sanctuary that we all know is no longer valid.

There are at least a dozen signs of all types on your way down into the Petro Park lot.

There is also a sign indicating that there is no pedestrian acces from the stairs leading up from the botttom of the Rebecca bridge.

BUT there is no indication at all that you are trespassing.

Read the act below it clearly spells out what needs to happen before you can be charged.

And in this case ignorance of the law does not apply.

I am aware of what the trespass law states.

The law is clear.

Ther are a number of ways to check if you are tresspassing:

The property must be posted; or

There needs to be some type of a structure such as a fence; or red paint with a sign indicating a boundary, or

The property needs to be maintained such as appearing to be cultivated,

such as a farm, orchard, etc. or

Or you must be asked to leave by a property owner or a person of authority such as a police officer or security guard.

None of these exist in this area.

Therefore I was not trespassing.

If you would like to educate yourself some more read here:

Trespass to Property Act

R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER T.21

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/...tes_90t21_e.htm

So the area we are talking about is just south of the Rebecca St. bridge???? Damn I just want to know

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^^ So I can start fishing all the ponds in Peoples back yards as long as they don't have a fence or tresspassing sign? I always thought if it wasn't crown or public land, you don't have no right without permission on the land. So I'm just heading out the door to drive down the backroads and start hunting in someones backyard, cause you told me I could! You got any deer in your backyard? :)

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^^ So I can start fishing all the ponds in Peoples back yards as long as they don't have a fence or tresspassing sign? I always thought if it wasn't crown or public land, you don't have no right without permission on the land. So I'm just heading out the door to drive down the backroads and start hunting in someones backyard, cause you told me I could! You got any deer in your backyard? :)

Read the act.

Basically if it looks like private property it is.

So if you see a pond and it is clearly on a persons land that is "kept" around it then you would be trespassing.

But if you were walking in a public area, and came upon a pond that was on private lands and there was no identifiable difference between the public land you started out on and the private land you end up on how could you be considered to be trespassing?

In this situation you would not be trespassing until someone tells you that you are on private lands.

That is why the law states that you could be charged if you are told to leave by a person with authority over the land but refuse to.

In the situation south of Rebecca Street, you are walking on a public trail north of Rebecca, but I guess as soon as you cross south of the bridge it is no longer public land, but there is nothing in the area to make you ever think that you are on a different piece of land, or that is being maintained or "kept". No signs, no fences, no maintianing such as clearing brush, planting, plowing, no buildings, etc., etc., etc.

You would think you are still in the same public area.

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Lots of fishing/trespass issues could be solved with some better signage. Bronte is a good example of a notorious place that could have the issue clarified with proper signs. Another place would be Montsberg on the train tracks. There are no trespassing signs posted on hydro poles but they could also illustrate just how costly that trespass on railway tracks actually is (I'm told by the management of Montsberg the fine is $525 per person). I suspect that even total scofflaws would rethink trespass at that price and the inevitable fatality that is going to happen when careless anglers mingle with freight trains travelling at 40mph on a track might be avoided.

Another trait of shore anglers illustrated by Fishfriday's post is the constant effort to justify their disgusting approach to angling by looking for loopholes in the laws they would like to disobey. The classic is standing in the water just off the private property/posted parkland claiming they are not trespassing (*at that moment) because they are in the water in navigable rivers. Personally I don't think this would be considered a defense in court where there's a great deal of discretion on behalf of the judge/justice of the peace since it is obvious that the angler would have been trespassing at some point to get to the water in the first place. The same applies to guys who would insist on trespassing on other people's private land until told by the cops to move on. It's other people's property and they don't want you there, that should be sufficiant to stay away but i guess if you need to snag up some salmon eggs anything goes for these "anglers". Bottom line salmon and their eggs bring out the very worst behavior in the lugans we have running around our province. The same attitude that allows stripping fish and tossing them back in the lake/river (like is so popular with the Dalousie "posse" and Whirlpool floatfishermen), flossing or snagging tightly packed salmon, bows and Browns at the Rebecca St Bridge on Bronte Creek, marshmallow/floating rowbag bottom snagging on virtually all of our piers and the 5 fish limit in the lake for Salmon/Trout. These behaviors all show the need in this province for the MNR to come to it's senses and into the 21st Century with some modern fishing regulations that stress the "sport" aspect of recreational angling over the harvest approach that dominates today. Our sportfish are not just fish fillets and potential bait to be exploited by do whatever it takes fishermen so as to offer a free grocery store or baitshop and the sooner the MNR acknowledges this fact the sooner our overall "sportfishing" will improve for all ethical anglers out there. Snidley

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what i think we need is for a reliable fishing club to start up or if there is one already to help teach and educate people on the right way of fishing and conservation. basically hold classes and maybe join up with bass pros and sell cheaper rods and reals to help those who cant affored.. or something...
i totally agree with C_P_A

I agree too :D

I believe if you are on a float tube or boat you are protected by the "navigable waters act" but I don't know if that includes fishing and hunting. I believe it may just be right to passage ("pass" age) and fishing may still be an activity on private property. http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/oep/nwpp/faqs.htm

It's interesting you have this vision of our outdoor clubs. There are two things related to your post that are happening at the next St Catharines Game and Fish meeting on Oct26/09. Firstly there is a OMNR Conservation officer and possibly a Canadian wildlife officer coming to discuss No fire zones, hunting and fishing in navigable waters and migratory bird regulations.

Secondly there will be a second and final round of nominations for executive and board of directors because the first round came up wayyyy short. So do you want to sit on your duff and be an armchair CO or actually meet one, get answers from the horses mouth and perhaps form a working relationship with them by joining and sitting on the BOD? :)

I'm not siting this term boys, it's someone elses term and maybe I'll do it again in 2 years. Hope we get some good ethical sportsmen in the club that night. I will still be selling OFAH memberships to members so if you want a good magazine subscription, drop in on the 26th.

http://scgameandfish.proboards.com/index.cgi/

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Lots of fishing/trespass issues could be solved with some better signage. Bronte is a good example of a notorious place that could have the issue clarified with proper signs. Another place would be Montsberg on the train tracks. There are no trespassing signs posted on hydro poles but they could also illustrate just how costly that trespass on railway tracks actually is (I'm told by the management of Montsberg the fine is $525 per person). I suspect that even total scofflaws would rethink trespass at that price and the inevitable fatality that is going to happen when careless anglers mingle with freight trains travelling at 40mph on a track might be avoided.

Another trait of shore anglers illustrated by Fishfriday's post is the constant effort to justify their disgusting approach to angling by looking for loopholes in the laws they would like to disobey. The classic is standing in the water just off the private property/posted parkland claiming they are not trespassing (*at that moment) because they are in the water in navigable rivers. Personally I don't think this would be considered a defense in court where there's a great deal of discretion on behalf of the judge/justice of the peace since it is obvious that the angler would have been trespassing at some point to get to the water in the first place. The same applies to guys who would insist on trespassing on other people's private land until told by the cops to move on. It's other people's property and they don't want you there, that should be sufficiant to stay away but i guess if you need to snag up some salmon eggs anything goes for these "anglers". Bottom line salmon and their eggs bring out the very worst behavior in the lugans we have running around our province. The same attitude that allows stripping fish and tossing them back in the lake/river (like is so popular with the Dalousie "posse" and Whirlpool floatfishermen), flossing or snagging tightly packed salmon, bows and Browns at the Rebecca St Bridge on Bronte Creek, marshmallow/floating rowbag bottom snagging on virtually all of our piers and the 5 fish limit in the lake for Salmon/Trout. These behaviors all show the need in this province for the MNR to come to it's senses and into the 21st Century with some modern fishing regulations that stress the "sport" aspect of recreational angling over the harvest approach that dominates today. Our sportfish are not just fish fillets and potential bait to be exploited by do whatever it takes fishermen so as to offer a free grocery store or baitshop and the sooner the MNR acknowledges this fact the sooner our overall "sportfishing" will improve for all ethical anglers out there. Snidley

Snidely:

I am not looking for a loophole so that I can disobey a law.

What I am trying to point out was that I fished in that area last week, because I did not know it was trespassing due to the lack of it being obvious that it is, due to lack of signs, fence, etc and the rest of the stuff that has already been discussed.

Now that I know that it is a no trespass area I will not fish there again.

I never said that I would keep going there due to the lack of it being evident. ( even though I could if I wanted to.)

I choose not to because I am not looking for loopholes. I am not looking to break laws or challenge them.

If you knew me you would know that in past years I have photographed and filmed "snaggers" in the area and then politley pointed out that if they did not stop and leave immediately I would call the police and show them the evidence, much to the amazement of my friends who were with me. I have escorted people back to the parking lot and watched them get in their cars and leave.

Do not judge people you do not know.

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Man... I started this thread and it turned into this. Wow! not my intentions. How does a little report turn into a debate on snagging (not in the OP)? Okay the law stuff is educational but really. LOL...where did it all go so wrong?

Alex

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Man... I started this thread and it turned into this. Wow! not my intentions. How does a little report turn into a debate on snagging (not in the OP)? Okay the law stuff is educational but really. LOL...where did it all go so wrong?

Alex

It all went wrong when people wanna debate the rules and reg's with fishermen on this board. We didnt make the rules, but there are a few of us that follow them and try to point them out to others that may not have the knownledge or know how. Funny thing is is when you try to educate people they take it as an attack and put their defence up when in reality there's no need for it. Don't argue the point of trespassing with other angler's but rather call the Halton Regional Police and find out from them. If they say no fishing and you still believe that you can fish there then do so but the risk falls into the individuals hands. All I can say now is that the section that's being spoken of has been closed for MANY years now and still to this day it is not opened for fishing, its a rule that's not hard to follow but seems hard to accept. Anyways enjoy the last few weeks of fishing salmon as they will all be done for very soon, then the real fishing starts : ) bow's and browns

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