pike007 Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well me and the wife took nice hike today in Burgoyning woods, was pretty cold but we dressed in a few layers so we felt good. We went down one of the trails when our new pup misty found a deer carcass for us, that we probably wouldnot of spotted jsut a few meteres off the trail. It was a doe that for the most part was eaten, coyotes is my guess. I dont know to much about that area, but there is for sure coyotes in there. Anybody ever spot them or here about them down there? 007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marth11 Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 that doesnt sound good, wouldn't be good since thats a popular spot for kids in the summer, and who knows what a small child would do with yote strolling by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Andrews Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 They are there all the time Joey. Look for tracks down the 12 mile and even that corridor that runs between the yacht club to 614 Lake (corner of Lakeshore) and all of the old canal corridors. Yotes are everywhere but its when people feed them that they become a problem or when development pushes them out of the bush. I have no problem with coyote taking deer. We have an excess of deer still in most areas and coyote's do naturally take them. Better than eating catfood of the front porch where a small child lives. Joey don't be afraid of wildlife. Learn about it and respect it and always be aware and it won't hurt you or the kids. If a coyote loses its fear of man you take it out of the picture. There's one good argument for hunting them. Keep the fear of humans in their bloodlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marth11 Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 They are there all the time Joey. Look for tracks down the 12 mile and even that corridor that runs between the yacht club to 614 Lake (corner of Lakeshore) and all of the old canal corridors. Yotes are everywhere but its when people feed them that they become a problem or when development pushes them out of the bush. I have no problem with coyote taking deer. We have an excess of deer still in most areas and coyote's do naturally take them. Better than eating catfood of the front porch where a small child lives.Joey don't be afraid of wildlife. Learn about it and respect it and always be aware and it won't hurt you or the kids. If a coyote loses its fear of man you take it out of the picture. There's one good argument for hunting them. Keep the fear of humans in their bloodlines. its not that im scared of them, its if kids are anything like my nieces and well not my nephew he's just over a week old they will think the yote is a dog or puppy and run after it to pet it, and there not the kind of kids to ask permission first im just worried that a yote might attack them in self defense or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longmayyourun Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Joey don't be afraid of wildlife. Learn about it and respect it and always be aware and it won't hurt you or the kids. Good Advice Chilli Whirlpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marth11 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Good Advice ChilliWhirlpool it is very good advice you should always respect wild or pet animals and its fairly easy to and also if a yote does decide to attack you or someone you know fight back with whatever you can get without turning around, even if its your own bare fists or your hat. but you should never have to get into a fight with a wild animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Andrews Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 but whirlpool, here's the flipside: http://farmersforum.com/ Coyotes will attack people By PAIGE AARHUS and TERRY MEAGHER KEMPTVILLE — An Osgoode trapper is calling on the city of Ottawa and the province to take action after a 16-year-old was attacked by a coyote in an orchard near Greely. Paul Mussell, owner and operator and Heritage Wildlife Services on River Road, said attacks on humans are uncommon, but hardly surprising given the huge population of the pests in Eastern Ontario. "I think the city’s got to take charge here. There’s some bad coyotes. If somebody was stealing cats and dogs the police would be on it and there would be an outcry, but because it’s out here, it’s nature," said Mussell, mentioning a farmer near Kars who recently lost a calf to the predators. The attack on John Schultz occurred September 30 when he was in an apple orchard. The boy was able to defend himself by kicking the coyote in the head. "At the end of time there’ll be cockroaches and coyotes. They’re just opportunists, when there’s trouble and an opportunity arrives, they take advantage," he said. Alberta Fish and Wildlife officer Ed Pirogowicz, says there have been only 18 confirmed attacks by coyotes on people over the past 20 years. Two small children were bitten in Calgary this year. In August, the CBC reported that a coyote attacked a two-year-old girl on a school playground at Port Coquitlam, British Columbia.Wildlife officers tracked and shot the coyote and found mashed potatoes in its stomach, which seems to lay to rest the argument that coyotes only attack when they are hungry. Most attacks on children left bite marks on the head. A Sarnia postman earlier this year was surrounded by coyotes who blocked his way on an urban street. Jeff Richardson, a rural Canada Post driver, between Kemptville and Merrickville, says he and his wife and daughter came close, too. In early September, they built a bonfire near their home. Later, their small pup started to whine and before long they were surrounded by coyotes yapping and howling, "No more than 20 or 30 feet from us in the dark. We were only 500 feet from the road and my wife and daughter, with the dog, climbed on the ATV. The girls were stressed out. I was getting the creeps and there were a lot of them. We went back to the house. The coyote population appears to have been exploding in Ontario in the last few years, with compensation from coyote kills reaching $1.2 million. Richardson used to raise chickens but finds he can’t anymore, though he keeps his black lab tied to the chicken coop to protect what’s there. Twenty years ago he camped out on this property and there were no coyotes. "Now you don’t keep cats and small dogs anymore. You don’t own a cat around here," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Joe Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Hey Chilli do you think they can swim the river? There are a ton of them on the Island even within about 1k' of my place. I don't hear much about them worrying about them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Andrews Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Don't know Joe but we had a small terrier swim across here a couple years ago. Sure sign the musky population is in trouble when a small dog like that can make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Joe Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Just wondering cause I see pup's out near the Whitehaven exit all the time coming home. Maybe not in musky waters wouldn't want to give up that info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninepointer Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Something very interesting and unique to coyote populations in parts of Ontario, Quebec and eastern Canada is that their genetic make-up is part grey wolf. This goes a long way towards explaining some of the physical characterics (relativley large size) and behaviours (pack hunting, taking larger prey) observed in our coyotes. Here are some refernces: Introgression of coyote mitochondrial DNA into sympatric North American gray wolf populations. Lehman, Niles. Evolution (0014-3820) 1 Feb 1991. Vol.45,Iss.1;p.104(16) Link to abstract: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2409486 Genetic Characterization of Hybrid Wolves across Ontario. Wilson, Paul J.; Grewal, Sonya K.; Mallory, Frank F.; White, Bradley N.; Wilson, Paul J. Journal of Heredity (0022-1503) 7/2/2009. Vol.100;p.S80-S89 Link to abstract: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=21679171 Origin and status of the Great Lakes wolf. Koblmuller, Stephan. Molecular Ecology (0962-1083) 1 Jun 2009. Vol.18,Iss.11;p.2313(14) Link to abstract: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/...000011/art00003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LockedInTheTrunkOfACar Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Question, yes a little twist on the topic ... but are there wolves in Niagara? I have heard the term brush/bush wolf numerous times and have always thought coyote, but I was talking to a guy in one fishing spot who claims he had seen wolves in the area (immediately around where we were fishing). We were on the outskirts of NOTL/Niagara Falls/St. Catharines area .... he was convinced he had seen and heard wolves .... I am convinced it would have just been coyotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spottedGARRR Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Something very interesting and unique to coyote populations in parts of Ontario, Quebec and eastern Canada is that their genetic make-up is part grey wolf. This goes a long way towards explaining some of the physical characterics (relativley large size) and behaviours (pack hunting, taking larger prey) observed in our coyotes. Here are some refernces:Introgression of coyote mitochondrial DNA into sympatric North American gray wolf populations. Lehman, Niles. Evolution (0014-3820) 1 Feb 1991. Vol.45,Iss.1;p.104(16) Link to abstract: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2409486 Genetic Characterization of Hybrid Wolves across Ontario. Wilson, Paul J.; Grewal, Sonya K.; Mallory, Frank F.; White, Bradley N.; Wilson, Paul J. Journal of Heredity (0022-1503) 7/2/2009. Vol.100;p.S80-S89 Link to abstract: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=21679171 Origin and status of the Great Lakes wolf. Koblmuller, Stephan. Molecular Ecology (0962-1083) 1 Jun 2009. Vol.18,Iss.11;p.2313(14) Link to abstract: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/...000011/art00003 very interesting, thanks for the great links ninepointer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Andrews Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 When I lived on Carelton St East in the 80's the neighbours claimed to see wolves all the time. Ninepointer, not all the coyotes have grown large in the region. I have recently spotted the smaller ones in the area and after seeing the tweed strain so often, it is easy to mistake the little ones for a fox at first glance. Here's one I found frozen in the Stevensville Conservation area on Sunday. Did not appear to have any wounds or mange either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longmayyourun Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 but whirlpool, here's the flipside:http://farmersforum.com/ Coyotes will attack people By PAIGE AARHUS and TERRY MEAGHER KEMPTVILLE — An Osgoode trapper is calling on the city of Ottawa and the province to take action after a 16-year-old was attacked by a coyote in an orchard near Greely. Paul Mussell, owner and operator and Heritage Wildlife Services on River Road, said attacks on humans are uncommon, but hardly surprising given the huge population of the pests in Eastern Ontario. "I think the city’s got to take charge here. There’s some bad coyotes. If somebody was stealing cats and dogs the police would be on it and there would be an outcry, but because it’s out here, it’s nature," said Mussell, mentioning a farmer near Kars who recently lost a calf to the predators. The attack on John Schultz occurred September 30 when he was in an apple orchard. The boy was able to defend himself by kicking the coyote in the head. "At the end of time there’ll be cockroaches and coyotes. They’re just opportunists, when there’s trouble and an opportunity arrives, they take advantage," he said. Alberta Fish and Wildlife officer Ed Pirogowicz, says there have been only 18 confirmed attacks by coyotes on people over the past 20 years. Two small children were bitten in Calgary this year. In August, the CBC reported that a coyote attacked a two-year-old girl on a school playground at Port Coquitlam, British Columbia.Wildlife officers tracked and shot the coyote and found mashed potatoes in its stomach, which seems to lay to rest the argument that coyotes only attack when they are hungry. Most attacks on children left bite marks on the head. A Sarnia postman earlier this year was surrounded by coyotes who blocked his way on an urban street. Jeff Richardson, a rural Canada Post driver, between Kemptville and Merrickville, says he and his wife and daughter came close, too. In early September, they built a bonfire near their home. Later, their small pup started to whine and before long they were surrounded by coyotes yapping and howling, "No more than 20 or 30 feet from us in the dark. We were only 500 feet from the road and my wife and daughter, with the dog, climbed on the ATV. The girls were stressed out. I was getting the creeps and there were a lot of them. We went back to the house. The coyote population appears to have been exploding in Ontario in the last few years, with compensation from coyote kills reaching $1.2 million. Richardson used to raise chickens but finds he can’t anymore, though he keeps his black lab tied to the chicken coop to protect what’s there. Twenty years ago he camped out on this property and there were no coyotes. "Now you don’t keep cats and small dogs anymore. You don’t own a cat around here," he said. Chile : As Paul Mussell, owner and operator and Heritage Wildlife Services on River Road, said attacks on humans are uncommon. With education, and common sense they would be even less common. Bounties have been proven not to work in Ontario and other regions , if that is what he is suggesting. Since in most parts of Ontario, Coyotes can be taken year round with a small game liscence, and no limits or tags, there is really not more we can do except to educate residents of ways to avoid interatction. I have seen people with small dogs off leash in the Burgoyne woods as well. This is breaking a City Bylaw in most communities including St. Catharines, unless on ones own propety. A person with a small dog off leash is risking losing it to a coyote, larger domestic dog, car, or poisoning . Im not saying people should not enjoy a walk with a dog off leash, just realize the risks they are taking, and accept them. There is a nice fenced in area for dogs off leash at Burgoyne Woods. One for small dogs and one for larger dogs. Whirlpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammercarp Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Chile : As Paul Mussell, owner and operator and Heritage Wildlife Services on River Road, said attacks on humans are uncommon. With education, and common sense they would be even less common. Bounties have been proven not to work in Ontario and other regions , if that is what he is suggesting. Since in most parts of Ontario, Coyotes can be taken year round with a small game liscence, and no limits or tags, there is really not more we can do except to educate residents of ways to avoid interatction. I have seen people with small dogs off leash in the Burgoyne woods as well. This is breaking a City Bylaw in most communities including St. Catharines, unless on ones own propety. A person with a small dog off leash is risking losing it to a coyote, larger domestic dog, car, or poisoning . Im not saying people should not enjoy a walk with a dog off leash, just realize the risks they are taking, and accept them. There is a nice fenced in area for dogs off leash at Burgoyne Woods. One for small dogs and one for larger dogs. Whirlpool Good luck. There are millions of Ontarians who think "The Lion King " is real. They have been thoroughly " Disneyized". They have been brainwashed into feeling sorry for all wild animals and there is no hope of anyone changing that. Their pets will get eaten and some of them as well. I remember years ago in one of the outdoor magazines a guy wrote an article about how he had caught a coyote by walking it down. There snow conditions allowed him to use his snowshoes and the deep snow exhausted the coyote. He walked right up to it and grabbed it. The coyote was paralyzed with fear. I don't think that would happen anymore. I remember the first reports of coyotes eating peoples pets came from California. Geez is that any wonder. I do like this song by Ian Tyson though.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yYc8mYfrkg . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longmayyourun Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Good luck. There are millions of Ontarians who think "The Lion King " is real. They have been thoroughly " Disneyized". They have been brainwashed into feeling sorry for all wild animals and there is no hope of anyone changing that. Their pets will get eaten and some of them as well. I remember years ago in one of the outdoor magazines a guy wrote an article about how he had caught a coyote by walking it down. There snow conditions allowed him to use his snowshoes and the deep snow exhausted the coyote. He walked right up to it and grabbed it. The coyote was paralyzed with fear. I don't think that would happen anymore. I remember the first reports of coyotes eating peoples pets came from California. Geez is that any wonder. I do like this song by Ian Tyson though.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yYc8mYfrkg . Hammer Carp: What I am suggesting is that being educated and knowing the habits of Coyotes and other Wildlife will reduce your chances of losing your pet, or harm to oneself. Education goes beyond Coyotes, for example lyme disease from ticks, potential rabies from any mammal, possible harm from overconsumption of fish. How can one argue that education and common sense could reduce potential interaction? It is our responsibility to educate our children of the habits of wild animals and not to live in a culture of fear. By education I am not suggesting that Disney films be the vehicle for this. I agree with you that some do feel sorry for all wild animals. I am not included in that group and enjoy a good meal of venison, or rabbit, have a leather coat and enjoy my steak. I have also enjoyed eating at wild game dinners. Factual information should be distributed to people to reduce potential harm. I have no problem with the hunting of Coyotes or any other species, if it is done within the rules and regulations. The lethal option is already there. What suggestions do you offer? Whirlpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammercarp Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hammer Carp: What I am suggesting is that being educated and knowing the habits of Coyotes and other Wildlife will reduce your chances of losing your pet, or harm to oneself. Education goes beyond Coyotes, for example lyme disease from ticks, potential rabies from any mammal, possible harm from overconsumption of fish. How can one argue that education and common sense could reduce potential interaction? It is our responsibility to educate our children of the habits of wild animals and not to live in a culture of fear.By education I am not suggesting that Disney films be the vehicle for this. I agree with you that some do feel sorry for all wild animals. I am not included in that group and enjoy a good meal of venison, or rabbit, have a leather coat and enjoy my steak. I have also enjoyed eating at wild game dinners. Factual information should be distributed to people to reduce potential harm. I have no problem with the hunting of Coyotes or any other species, if it is done within the rules and regulations. The lethal option is already there. What suggestions do you offer? Whirlpool. I agree with you. Education and common sense would help alliviate the problem. The truth is though these things have never been able to overcome pop culture and propaganda. History is rife with examples of that. This "fairy tale" version of how nature works has been fed to people for over 40 years.I agree with you also that" It is our responsibilty to educate our children". But if you are depending on the school system or the media to do so, you will be sadly disappointed. If you ran an opinion poll and asked people if white tailed deer were endangered I think you would be shocked to see how many would agree with that. It's an uphill battle and I do commend you and guys like Dan for your efforts. Maybe I am growing cynical. In answer to your question. Look after your own children. Teach them about preditors and wild animals. That is the best you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longmayyourun Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 I agree with you. Education and common sense would help alliviate the problem. The truth is though these things have never been able to overcome pop culture and propaganda. History is rife with examples of that. This "fairy tale" version of how nature works has been fed to people for over 40 years.I agree with you also that" It is our responsibilty to educate our children". But if you are depending on the school system or the media to do so, you will be sadly disappointed. If you ran an opinion poll and asked people if white tailed deer were endangered I think you would be shocked to see how many would agree with that. It's an uphill battle and I do commend you and guys like Dan for your efforts. Maybe I am growing cynical. In answer to your question. Look after your own children. Teach them about preditors and wild animals. That is the best you can do. Hammercarp: I could not agree with you more. Popular media and propaganda is very powerful and often portray a fairy tale version of reality. The school system teaches very little about wildlife education, aside from lip service given to a few endangered species. The responsiblility then lies with the parents of the children to pass on factual information, and in most cases the parents do not have the knowldege themselves, or turn to pop culture and propaganda. Chile you and I are certainly on the same page here. Whirlpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pike007 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Eastern brush wolf, aka bush or brush wolf is what we see around the area, along with coyotes that are shorter with a longer bushier tail (like the one shown in my avatar), there is also coy dogs which are half coyote half dog or half brush wolf half dog. All kind of different looking ones around. Lets not mistaken the eastern brush wolf for a wolf although it might look like one, if you put a real wolf and one of those beside eachother you would see the difference, wolves are huge!! Ive seen them in timmins. Ive also seen all black bush wolves in niagara on the lake , there quite intimidating. 007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Andrews Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 I have witnessed a wolf in Fort Erie mind you it was on the frozen lake. I thought it was a deer at first due to the size. I drove to the next lookout to have a better look with the binoculars and as it came around the rock pile at Stonemill Rd it stopped in its tracks and looked right at me. Big hunch back and fluffy tail which stays poked between its legs. I could only see a speck without my binoculars but he could see me just fine. He turned 90 degrees and headed straight out onto the lake. I try to teach my kids but I am no match for facebook and girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerunner Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Chile is right: Learning about wildlife is not a high priority among most of our young people. Maybe best to catch them when they are at the table eating..lol A good resource on Ontario Wolves and Eastern Coyotees can be found at http://www.grey.ca/media/files/Coyote%20&a...r%20posting.pdf Lakerunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninepointer Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hey Lakerunner, thanks for that link! Great information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakerunner Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hey Lakerunner, thanks for that link! Great information! Ninepointer: You are very welcome I found it a very useful report prepared by a MNR biologist. It is specific to the Wolves and Eastern Coyotes found in Ontario, and presents an unbiased view. Lakerunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninepointer Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Ninepointer: You are very welcome I found it a very useful report prepared by a MNR biologist. It is specific to the Wolves and Eastern Coyotes found in Ontario, and presents an unbiased view.Lakerunner Its interesting that Coyote Watch includes the a link (albeit a dead link) to the exact same info. Yet in their materials, or at least in the single presentation that I've heard, Coyote Watch's info was much less balanced. Its hard to believe they were even talking about the same animal that the MNR is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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