Asian carp

[knightfisher]

I was also told residents in Fort Erie used to "fish" tropical fish out of the ditch on Helena St. Apparently a tropical fish warehouse if there is such a thing used to dispose of the sick or unwanted fish by simply dumping them in the ditch. That wouldn't be allowed to happen these days.

Years ago I use to go and collect fish from that ditch. Bring them home and put them into a smaller tank and if they survived, which most did, they went into the community tank.

The warehouse was in the business of suppling pet shops with fish, not treating sick fish. The word got out fast and that ditch was check daily by locals and the odd out of towner. Those fish were no threat to the environment because they would not survive the colder temps here.

[dunder]

Yes one could but one could not say that about Alanis Morisettes song.

I would have other things to say about her songs, Lorne

[Snidley]

If you view the video the most alarming thing stated is that the Asian Carp actually prefers cooler water than the Mississippi river and it's tribs. They seem to be doing well in the river if they do even better in the colder Great Lakes we are in trouble.

There was a video circulating a few years ago showing guys running a bow hunting charter for these bad boys. At the end of the video they filletted the carp and showed the meat. Unlike common carp, who's flesh is a sickley orange colour, the Asian Carp's was white like walleye. The hunters claimed it tastes better than walleye too. Still if we can keep them out of the great Lakes it would be much better.

[hammercarp]

I am speculating on the impact of these fish on the great lakes and there are a lot of scenarios that may play out. One is that they won't do all that well in the great lakes. They seem to thrive much better in rivers than lakes. Big mouth buffalo fish and paddlefish are two big native filter feeders and they have not done that well in the great lakes.

Another future I see is the revitalisation of the commercial fishery in the great lakes. You can take this as negative or positive since the commercial fishers would target these three carps and leave the rest to anglers to catch.

You may see the return of massive stocking campaigns of salmonids. They would be stocked in order to reduce the numbers of fry produced by these fish. This is much the same idea behind the stocking of salmon to reduce the numbers of alewifes.

What ever the outcome of this is there has been a lot of major changes to the great lakes over the last 30 years or so. Massive stocking campaigns, zebra mussels, gobies, cormorants, warmer temperatures and now these guys.

[spottedGARRR]

cormorants are cool looking birds, but baaaad news

[smerchly]

At the SCFFA last night , Randy Tippin ,CO for this area, was the guest speaker & his slide show presentation on Asian carp was a real eye opener !! The carp market in Toronto is huge & live fish are sold by the thousands daily . Thruck loads of live fish cross the border from the US and only a portion of the tanks can be checked ,which makes smuggling of any fish or drugs etc. easier to do. The impression I got from this meeting is that these carp will invade the great lakes & spread into all the tribs connected to the lakes and destroy the fishery as we know it today . We saw pictures of these monster silver & big head carp & grass carp which reach 90 lbs. & are expected to go well over that with the perfect conditions for their numbers to explode in the lower lakes . It was mentioned , there is a religious gathering of the Delai Lama in T.O. , a huge event where they have a belief that releasing a fish into a body of water rids the body of evil .Our small force of COs haven't a chance to have much say in this situation.... As usual , it's religious beliefs that create the biggest problems for mankind .Nothing will be done to control these huge fish markets because of politics ,so we can expect to see the multi billion dollar sports/commercial fishery to be decimated by these carp . These carp grow very fast & in a ten year span they can wipe out our fishery .What will happen to the whole sport fishing/boat/tackle industry is anybodys guess. As hammercarp stated "This is NOT good" .........

[Erik.T.]

At the SCFFA last night , Randy Tippin ,CO for this area, was the guest speaker & his slide show presentation on Asian carp was a real eye opener !! The carp market in Toronto is huge & live fish are sold by the thousands daily . Thruck loads of live fish cross the border from the US and only a portion of the tanks can be checked ,which makes smuggling of any fish or drugs etc. easier to do. The impression I got from this meeting is that these carp will invade the great lakes & spread into all the tribs connected to the lakes and destroy the fishery as we know it today . We saw pictures of these monster silver & big head carp & grass carp which reach 90 lbs. & are expected to go well over that with the perfect conditions for their numbers to explode in the lower lakes . It was mentioned , there is a religious gathering of the Delai Lama in T.O. , a huge event where they have a belief that releasing a fish into a body of water rids the body of evil .Our small force of COs haven't a chance to have much say in this situation.... As usual , it's religious beliefs that create the biggest problems for mankind .Nothing will be done to control these huge fish markets because of politics ,so we can expect to see the multi billion dollar sports/commercial fishery to be decimated by these carp . These carp grow very fast & in a ten year span they can wipe out our fishery .What will happen to the whole sport fishing/boat/tackle industry is anybodys guess. As hammercarp stated "This is NOT good" .........

could we put gill nets up around where the fish are supposed to be released?

[hammercarp]

could we put gill nets up around where the fish are supposed to be released?

Or better yet convince them to release fish which are already here. Sunfish for example.

[smerchly]

The most urgent problem is the US canal . They will not berm in the canal because it's a commercial water way . Randy said barges pass over the electric fences & there's a chance for an electrical short if the steel barge makes contact with this barrier . That could blow out the system or cause injury to the boaters ? I asked Randy about the carp eating themselves out of food & starving . He said that has happened in the lower Mississippi & the carp were set back and they moved to better pastures , until their food supply returns . Just like rats !They like cold water & maps were shown of the Asian river systems that went right up to Russia where the water freezes & that's where these fish came from originally & were brought to the lower US to clean up commercial ponds & we know what happened after that !. Locally , these carp would do very well & grow fast . L.Erie is perfect for them & even small water bodies like Martindale pond & the 12 Mile system would be perfect for them . One of the guys asked why not ban all live fish from being transported & ban them from selling fish alive at these markets . Good question ! But again , it's political & it would be suicide for the party that would make it illegal . The only answer now is , we will have to deal with it later .

Eric , it would be impossible to put nets around Toronto harbour to stop fish from entering the lake . There are also regular carp already in our waters . They don't thing the Asian carp will interbreed with our carp species .

[Erik.T.]

Eric , it would be impossible to put nets around Toronto harbour to stop fish from entering the lake . There are also regular carp already in our waters . They don't thing the Asian carp will interbreed with our carp species .

so they aren't releasing the fish from one specific spot? I think hammer's idea would be great. Release a couple of rainbows or something for good luck.

[drsmooth]

Hire the Chicago Mafia (not that they exist) to fill in the canal Ilegally (lots of access to big equipment) and make sure their lawyers are funded to defend them.

It would be good P.R. for the Mafia (defending the Great Lakes) and they would likely get off the charges. If it went to the Supreme Court.

Seriously if every person that fishes in the Great Lakes paid a dollar toward this plan there would be more than enough money to fill in the canal and for a 20 year court battle defending those that did it.

[pinocchio]

This whole religious bit about releasing fish sounds like another problem created by uneducated people not understanding the damage that can be caused by releasing introduced species into environments where they do not belong. I think it is more a government problem allowing live fish that are not native to be sold live. My last statement was off base and I apologize to anyone I offended

[dunder]

This whole religious bit about releasing fish sounds like another problem created by Canada’s soft immigration policies. We should model or immigration closer to that of Australia.

Immigration and fishing have nothing to do with each other. I am an immigrant. I respect the regulations, environment, and most anglers. I'm tired of this narrow minded crap. Keep your negative views to yourself

[smerchly]

It's only the religious beliefs , not immigration that is part of this issue . I do not confer with any religion on this planet , so if you believe eating ants is good for you , be my guest . The mnr is up against religious beliefs, like bear gall bladders to sacred cows, & that creates the illegal market ,which is huge .This was discussed at the meeting. I just asked my wife if they sell live rainbow trout at the Zehrs store here & she said they can't sell them live . I don't know why , so I googled up "supermarket store/live fish" & the first thread to come up at the top was this one......

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/ar...ve-bighead-carp

The live bighead carp was released live in a "ceremony" . IMO .....no live fish should be sold including trout ! We cannot transport a goby or a crayfish in a bucket or live minnows from Niagara to L.Simcoe etc. But transports & ships can fill huge dirty tanks with all kinds of fish . As the mnr stated , a truck rollover can happen & spill the live fish into a stream or river etc. & cause some great concern . It's about time to stop the sale of live fish to help stop the spread of the invasives . And I believe the canal in the US is the #1 priority .If we sit on our butts and do nothing , we will end up with one species of fish ......no fishing regs required .......

[dunder]

Cultural customs and religious ceremonies from certain immigrant groups are irrelevant to this problem then, right?

No. I didn't say that. My issue is with people who stereotype certain groups in a negative way. Take the 'nipper tippers"" for example. They could use the release of a fish by the 'immigrant group' as fodder for thier violent and Illegal attacks on what they consider 'Immigrants'. It's a symptom of a larger problem.

I don't want to continue this topic on this thread, Drifter. I've already hijacked it enough. Feel free to PM me if you like.

[dunder]

It's only the religious beliefs , not immigration that is part of this issue . I do not confer with any religion on this planet , so if you believe eating ants is good for you , be my guest . The mnr is up against religious beliefs, like bear gall bladders to sacred cows, & that creates the illegal market ,which is huge .This was discussed at the meeting. I just asked my wife if they sell live rainbow trout at the Zehrs store here & she said they can't sell them live . I don't know why , so I googled up "supermarket store/live fish" & the first thread to come up at the top was this one......

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/ar...ve-bighead-carp

The live bighead carp was released live in a "ceremony" . IMO .....no live fish should be sold including trout ! We cannot transport a goby or a crayfish in a bucket or live minnows from Niagara to L.Simcoe etc. But transports & ships can fill huge dirty tanks with all kinds of fish . As the mnr stated , a truck rollover can happen & spill the live fish into a stream or river etc. & cause some great concern . It's about time to stop the sale of live fish to help stop the spread of the invasives . And I believe the canal in the US is the #1 priority .If we sit on our butts and do nothing , we will end up with one species of fish ......no fishing regs required .......

Smerchly

You've raised a good point. It is a case of double standards

[Dan Andrews]

Actually I agree with drifter but at the same time know that it's not just sensitivity. Right or wrong no one in the government wants to argue with an Indian or trample an immigrants beliefs. That would make a politician look intolerant. With that said the Ministry can't just barge into China town and break up their racket that has been allowed to go down for so long. A huge sweep with allot of police needs to be conducted so Ontario can show they are serious about the situation. The lawsuit they have filed is otherwise hypocritical.

Hairwig your being sensitive yourself. We could say immigrants which most of us are or we could just say Asians. Perhaps drifter was treading lightly but still caught heck for it. There seems to be no way of saying it without offending someone so I guess we'll have to just come out and say it. Asians have been known to sell live fish from foreign countries and some have been known to live release them for good luck. What we need to do is boldly go into the asian community, make some friends and get the ignorant ones educated. BTW I've talked with some pretty ignorant white locals who think its fun to fish in sanctuaries and don't give a crap about our concerns for the environment when it comes to planting fish. Whether your black, white, yellow or purple, there's some that need schooling and some that need to get busted and taken for a financial ride.

[hammercarp]

This has turned into more than I ever figured it would. But it comes down to this the great lakes fishery is being threatened but not because of what is going on in Toronto. It is being threatened because of the 1/2 billion dollar a year catfish farming business in the southern states. No immigrants or asians there. It is being threatened by something that has been coming for over 30 years. Those carp escaped from flooded catfish farms in the 1970's.

[smerchly]

A recent comment I heard about this subject was , " Don't worry about the carp , we won't be around to see it" . I guess that was meant to mean , it might take another 30 yrs. before the lakes are infested with them ? IMO , as I said above , we need to nip it in the bud ,which means, put the plug in wherever there may be a leak ......fish markets included . See what you started Hammer ? ha ha .......I'm glad to see all the interest in this which is a good thing !

[hammercarp]

That is the diplomatic response. All at fault, nobody to blame.

BS It's is the plain truth.

[hammercarp]

A recent comment I heard about this subject was , " Don't worry about the carp , we won't be around to see it" . I guess that was meant to mean , it might take another 30 yrs. before the lakes are infested with them ? IMO , as I said above , we need to nip it in the bud ,which means, put the plug in wherever there may be a leak ......fish markets included . See what you started Hammer ? ha ha .......I'm glad to see all the interest in this which is a good thing !

I agree with you 100% on that.

[bigugli]

Regretably, the United States government will do whatever it wants and we have no influence on the outcome. We are just spectators. It could also be a year or more before the Supreme Court hears the legal challenge to close the canal.

The agency responsible for the canal, the Army Corps of Engineers, have already made it clear that they want concrete proof of the carp's presence before they act. When that hard proof is available, they can then publicly declare that it is too late for any remedial action.

Governments never do well promoting a proactive response because "what if" is hard to sell to taxpayers, especially in the U.S. Except when the "what if" is expected from the Middle East.

[Dan Andrews]

Fact of the matter Tommy is that is the threat this thread was about. The asian carp were intentionally stocked in there with the blessing of the United States government. As we were told by conservation officer Randy Tippen; these carp have migrated in search of food because they ate themselves out of a home. The carp problem may not even still be that bad at the origin of infestation because they have moved on to better pastures. The pastures of concern right now are the great lakes and despite the threat from Toronto that should be the focus of this thread with the exception of the hypocrisy I just pointed out.

We need to show that we're willing to clean up our own back yard before complaining about the neighbors. If we don't get both yards cleaned up soon it may be out of our hands.

[hammercarp]

Regretably, the United States government will do whatever it wants and we have no influence on the outcome. We are just spectators. It could also be a year or more before the Supreme Court hears the legal challenge to close the canal.

The agency responsible for the canal, the Army Corps of Engineers, have already made it clear that they want cocrete proof of the carp's presence before they act. When that hard proof is available, they can then publicly declare that it is too late for any remedial action.

Governments never do well promoting a proactive response because "what if" is hard to sell to taxpayers, especially in the U.S. Except when the "what if" is expected from the Middle East.

Ya. We missed our chance when the media was allowed to name these beasties " Asian Carp" . Al Queda Carp would have been wiped out by now. Or maybe not.

[Dan Andrews]

But they don't need to sell this to the taxpayers; they are already rallying to close this canal. Both American and Canadian.