Blatant Attack On Our Fishing Rights. Martindale Pond Access Denied‏

[meatface]

There are three possibilities ...

1. Someone who had intentions of disrupting the races due to the rocks in place

2. Someone ignorant to the races and how busy the pond was

3. A setup, so they can claim KAYAKERS ARE BAD PEOPLE, NO LAUNCH FOR YOU

The rocks remain as they are under the guise of "erosion". Expect them to be there until the follow-up meeting occurs, and then it would be dependent on the results of that meeting. In all seriousness no one would be fined for putting rocks anywhere unless it interfered with $ somehow, this is the city of St. Catharines ... a neighbor of mine has been reported many times for dumping old chemicals into the storm sewers and the city never follows up.

There are more possibilities. One is that this picture is not even from Martindale Pond. If they were really trying to prove their case wouldn't the picture be panned back so that you could easily recognize the waterway? Another possibility is that it is in fact on Martindale Pond but not during any race time, or not even during the regatta week. Again, why wouldn't they be panned back so you could see the racing activity? My guess is that it is bullsh*t!

[smerchly]

Even if the picture is ligit , the yaks are in no way a threat to the races . A telephoto lens can be deceiving by making a waterway look much narrower . Take a photo of Toronto from the pier with a 500mm lens & the lake will look like Martindale Pond . The yaks were very close to shore in the weed beds . It would be a safe place to watch the races as they did many years ago .

[psilokan]

I'm a bit late to this party, I've been a member of this forum for a year or two now but I was actually made aware of this post via a thread on myccr.com. I am more so a canoer than I am a fisherman, and with so few places to canoe around here this certainly struck a chord for me. I am from Welland and have already met much frustration with the two rowing clubs on the "Recreational Canal," on more than one occasion I've been told I had to stay away from certain areas while they practiced rowing, even though they were hugging the west side and there was no traffic on the east side on which I was paddling. I'll admit, I've never paddled in Martindale pond but this situation bothers me greatly, for the many reasons that all of you have already outlined.

"would hate for someone to get injured, you know we do row backwards".

This is one comment that stood out to me that I haven't seen addressed. If they're going backwards, why are WE responsible for avoiding them? Obviously avoiding a collision is in the best interest of both parties, but if I were backing out of my driveway and I backed into a bicycler who was riding down the sidewalk, who's fault would that be? Would it be reasonable for me to request that all bicycles be forbidden on my street as I might not see them coming? I think not.

Now as I said, it's in the interest of both parties to avoid a collision. So basic survival instinct will stop all but the most unware or suicidal people from cutting in front of rowers. It's not even like they move stealthy, it's very hard not to see or hear them coming. So this whole argument is extremely flawed.

[blairwelsh]

Thats what increases the Frustration.

The Kayakers and Canoes have not been a "problem".

The Rowing Clun is basically just trying to take Control of the ENTIRE POND.

It's ALL OURS, get out - everyone else!

Not a single arguement they have forwarded has any merit to it.

However, they count on:

Fear

Apathy

Their "Connections" (and "Grandfather" status)

Mis - Information

Unfortunetly, they have ALREADY placed the Rocks at Hendley.

It's kind of like the "Ownership is nine tenths of the Law" senario

Once they have been placed, now we have to FIGHT to remove them and settle this situation.

The uphill battle is on our hands, not theirs.

* IF we could REMOVE these Rocks ASAP, (in a safe and orderly manner) that might help.

I am not a "lawyer", but I dont see these "Rocks" as being considered Rowing Club Property.

They are an endangerment to the community who uses the Place.

At this time, there is NO LEGISLATION or OWNERSHIP that forbids the public from USING the POND.

So you would think a reasonable removal of a dangerous impeadment, would not be considered unreasonable.

Just my thoughts.

*I do not own a Flat bed truck, but with the help of 2 or 3 guys - I know I can LIFT my SHARE!

*SMILES*

The "Rocks" of course should be kept in a SAFE PLACE, if for any reason - an "Ownership Claim" is made and someone wants them back.

[ogliq2]

Thats what increases the Frustration.

The Kayakers and Canoes have not been a "problem".

The Rowing Clun is basically just trying to take Control of the ENTIRE POND.

It's ALL OURS, get out - everyone else!

Not a single arguement they have forwarded has any merit to it.

However, they count on:

Fear

Apathy

Their "Connections" (and "Grandfather" status)

Mis - Information

Unfortunetly, they have ALREADY placed the Rocks at Hendley.

It's kind of like the "Ownership is nine tenths of the Law" senario

Once they have been placed, now we have to FIGHT to remove them and settle this situation.

The uphill battle is on our hands, not theirs.

* IF we could REMOVE these Rocks ASAP, (in a safe and orderly manner) that might help.

I am not a "lawyer", but I dont see these "Rocks" as being considered Rowing Club Property.

They are an endangerment to the community who uses the Place.

At this time, there is NO LEGISLATION or OWNERSHIP that forbids the public from USING the POND.

So you would think a reasonable removal of a dangerous impeadment, would not be considered unreasonable.

Just my thoughts.

*I do not own a Flat bed truck, but with the help of 2 or 3 guys - I know I can LIFT my SHARE!

*SMILES*

The "Rocks" of course should be kept in a SAFE PLACE, if for any reason - an "Ownership Claim" is made and someone wants them back.

Or even roll them aside to where they are no longer a hazard, then nothing has actually been removed, just moved....

[jmvs]

^{First of all, the water is considered navigable water, which means it is open to all by Federal law. Further the land under navigable water is Crown land, which is governed by Federal law. I'm quite curious if the dregding some years back had approval of the federal govt, in this case the federal dept of Transportation which is responsible for navigable waters. I'm sure the Ministry of Transportation and the MP should be made aware of this situation and questions asked in which manner or agreement allows the rowing club to have such sway and power to do as they wish on the pond. I'm sure it could get mightv interesting. As well, any negative or questionable actions in regard to the rowing club use of the pond and the Federal govt opinion could draw some negative archive information which could be printed in the newspaper embarrassing the club in the process..}

^{As well, the lease between the city and the club . should be scanned and posted in this forum, so we know the actual terms and limitations in the document. Finally a need for a site plan or survey plan which is typically found at City Hall to be obtained and posted on the forum. I'm sure digging into the City archives could draw up some juicy tidbits not so favourable to the rowing club's cause.}

^{I have actually heard of an old native tale, whereupon rocks move under a full moon, when the stars are in the right alignment, quacking ducks swim northwest as southeast winds blow upon north cresting waves. Now, one never knows if such a phenom will occur this year, but one never know, now do they?}

^{That's all folks.... (:-{~}

[scapulataf]

*I do not own a Flat bed truck, but with the help of 2 or 3 guys - I know I can LIFT my SHARE!

*SMILES*

The "Rocks" of course should be kept in a SAFE PLACE, if for any reason - an "Ownership Claim" is made and someone wants them back.

Those rocks look like limestone. It weights 165 pounds per cubic foot. we would need some pretty big guys to lift some of them.

As far as the waters being under federal jurisdiction, I compiled a bunch of info and sent it off to ummmm.... Someone on the board, I forget who. But there have been some changes to the Navigable Waters Protection Act (NWPA) a few years ago. Basically most of the act was gutted, though the pond may still fall under waters that are covered by it.

[sooner]

not that I would want to see it happen, but heaven forbid someone hurt themselves on these rocks and a lawsuit is launched against the city for not taking action when issue was reported.

[sooner]

I'm a bit late to this party, I've been a member of this forum for a year or two now but I was actually made aware of this post via a thread on myccr.com. I am more so a canoer than I am a fisherman, and with so few places to canoe around here this certainly struck a chord for me. I am from Welland and have already met much frustration with the two rowing clubs on the "Recreational Canal," on more than one occasion I've been told I had to stay away from certain areas while they practiced rowing, even though they were hugging the west side and there was no traffic on the east side on which I was paddling. I'll admit, I've never paddled in Martindale pond but this situation bothers me greatly, for the many reasons that all of you have already outlined.

This is one comment that stood out to me that I haven't seen addressed. If they're going backwards, why are WE responsible for avoiding them? Obviously avoiding a collision is in the best interest of both parties, but if I were backing out of my driveway and I backed into a bicycler who was riding down the sidewalk, who's fault would that be? Would it be reasonable for me to request that all bicycles be forbidden on my street as I might not see them coming? I think not.

Now as I said, it's in the interest of both parties to avoid a collision. So basic survival instinct will stop all but the most unware or suicidal people from cutting in front of rowers. It's not even like they move stealthy, it's very hard not to see or hear them coming. So this whole argument is extremely flawed.

I've got a suggestion for this....like was said during posts "they don't own the water" and "they hug the shores". So why don't they put buoys around the pond approximately 50-100 feet from shoreline and stay within they're markers. As long as we use caution when going through these channels to get to shore there should be no problem. This would also prevent any fear of "people entering so close to the bridge and someone colliding with a rower".

[CLofchik]

It's been noted a few times, the only body responsible for land alterations in that area is the Niagara Conservation Authority. No Federal or Provincial order will drop from the sky, no the rocks aren't there illegally. The rowing club applied for and received a permit for them.

Every paddler that voted Liberal in the last three elections, well here's what you deserve. McGuinty has downloaded, cut, slashed, and butchered everything in this province to the highest contributor. And the rowing club can nudge/wink whatever erosion permit they want rubber stamped from an authority that probably has never seen the area. If anybody here has earth moving equipment, feel free to apply for a permit to move "The Rocks" to "an area more susceptible to erosion" than where they lay now.

If not, well it's another case of upper middle class NIMBY's having delusions of being one of the rich & powerful because they won.

[slooky]

Well at least we don`t have that certain FORMER Mayor looking after things. He would shut the door in our faces. He took really good care of the Rowing but left the city in shambles!

[sooner]

any info on the when the next meeting is to take place.

[Helron]

maybe we should organize a Canoe / Kayak float in, on a Sat. or Sun. morning, draw some attention to our plight! I am sure we could fill up the pond with no problem, just a thought!

[meatface]

maybe we should organize a Canoe / Kayak float in, on a Sat. or Sun. morning, draw some attention to our plight! I am sure we could fill up the pond with no problem, just a thought!

Probably wouldn't be a good idea to create drama. Taking the high road will get us further at this point. Irritating the club won't help us out. The people that are working on this are very diligent and working hard for the community. Knightfisher has alot on his plate with this and we don't want to make more of an uphill battle for him. Unfortunately the wheels are already turning and as frustrating as it is we just have to have patience here. I'm sure we all have the same impulses when reacting to an emotional topic, but we have to let our common sense dictate here.

[meatface]

Not sure how realistic it is, but it's a nice dream and a good read http://martindalepond.blogspot.ca/2012/08/working-together.html

[knightfisher]

The next meeting with the club and city hall is this coming week.

As meatface said, patience is needed.

OFAH is involved and we are all working on a mutually agreed

upon solution.

Again any and all ideas and recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

[Helron]

The float in was an idea to heighten the publics awareness about our rights being stomped on. Was not talking blockades or rowing club interference, I don't understand why we have to tip toe around this issue as we have a right to be vocal. I understand nightfisher is working very hard on our behalf, and I appreciate that very much. That being said I think we should be able to post our opinions !

[Snags]

They already brought up that kayakers got on the course at the major race AND it was mentioned on here that there Should be a sit in interrupting the race ....

The public is aware as Knightfisher was in the paper discussing the issue prior to the meetings.

[riggs]

was at henely island today, the rocks in the water have been moved, they have backfilled with soil behind the remaining rocks

[smerchly]

That sounds promising........a picture would sure be welcome & I'm sure it will be checked out tomorrow and confirmed ...........

[meatface]

The float in was an idea to heighten the publics awareness about our rights being stomped on. Was not talking blockades or rowing club interference, I don't understand why we have to tip toe around this issue as we have a right to be vocal. I understand nightfisher is working very hard on our behalf, and I appreciate that very much. That being said I think we should be able to post our opinions !

1. No one says that we have to tip toe

2. You should be vocal, but intelligently vocal

3. No one says you can't post your opinion, you did. And so did I

I speak from experience when I say intelligently vocal. If you go through the entire thread you will see that I said something stupid early on and it ended up on the front page of the Standard! So I learned from that mistake. Many eyes are on this thread, it's not a private conversation.

I don't believe that anyone is tip toeing around anything. From what I understand, we are just using some diplomacy, the last thing we want to do at this point is aggravate the situation.

If you want your opinion on this issue to be heard then speak loud and clear, but please speak to the right person. The one to speak to would be your councillor. Everyone should speak to their councillor, and the councillors for the ward that the island is in. If you don't have your councillors email, it has been listed on the Martindale Pond blog. You can find it here --> http://martindalepond.blogspot.ca/2012/08/your-opinion-counts.html

Please don't think that your opinion has no value or that we don't want to hear it. We do. But it is best served being directed to city council as well. I know that it is frustrating feeling like we are sitting on our hands. I'm frustrated too, but unfortunately we need to run this through due process first. Once we have an outcome from that then we decide where to go from there. If you have questions or concerns send a PM to knightfisher, I'm sure he'd be glad to have some more help with this matter.

[heavy cover]

was at henely island today, the rocks in the water have been moved, they have backfilled with soil behind the remaining rocks

the rocks haven't been moved. I left after sunset and the rocks were in place when I left.

[Bryan]

I was there too on the weekend checking things out.. Looks like the rocks are still there.. it does look like dirt was added behind them making them only about a foot high instead of 2 - 3 feet high... which i think they originaly were...

but i could be mistaken....

[cdnfishguy11]

The float in was an idea to heighten the publics awareness about our rights being stomped on. Was not talking blockades or rowing club interference, I don't understand why we have to tip toe around this issue as we have a right to be vocal. I understand nightfisher is working very hard on our behalf, and I appreciate that very much. That being said I think we should be able to post our opinions !

Technically our rights have not been stomped on... they had approval to do this...

you need to realize that this thread is the #1 hit on google when you search the subject... and having a bunch of fisherman and kayakers posting everything that comes to mind looks bad on all of us and will not help our situation at all!

[Helron]

cdnfishinguy what the rowing club did was sneaky and underhanded in my opinion, instead of approaching various groups to try and work out a solution. And exactly who but a bunch of fishermen and kayakers would post their opinion on this subject, as they are the ones most affected!