Short Hills Deer Hunt

[rickyy33]

from the standard live updates via twitter the hunters are having great success

[jordanl]

https://twitter.com/StCatStandard heres the updates if anybody wants to keep current with them, looking like alot of deer sightings and a lot of confused protesters, there were also 2 protesters who made it into the park but were quickly pulled out by police, now protesters are going around the outside of the park blowing air horns and honking there arms.

[scapulataf]

Even if 20 Men hunt and each get 2 deer. Will stil not even dent the pop, I would say theres a good 100 deer there.

007

If there are 100 deer in the park, 20 hunters times 2 deer each is a 40% reduction. Pretty significant if you ask me.

Also, thanks Jordan, I was wondering if the hunt was going to happen. I look forward to seeing what people try and do to screw them up next week. Suicide bombers in the park?

[fishcatch]

I doubt if many deer will be shot and killed.

As a bow hunter myself and as many of you bow hunters out there know....... It is not all that easy.

There will more wounded deer if anything at all taking place on that hunt.

To track a shot deer and struggling with it up those hills and from down in the valley's to retrieve it.

They'll have their work cut out for them for sure.

Good grief......

[smerchly]

I drove down 1st St. to Pelham and saw a lot of vehicles in the Flats where many deer can be found but there are houses there in the south side where the Hogs Back road is (was). I turned west on Pelham Rd. & saw the parking lot at Short Hills blocked & only one car parked on the road . If the success rate is high today & tomorrow , they may not hunt next week . It's amazing the amount of publicity this has caused , & the newspapers are in their glory ......

[jordanl]

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2013/01/04/live-coverage-short-hills-deer-hunt

well heres another link, just the standards write up on todays events, nothing special talked bout the protesters, interviewed a local hunter no numbers yet though..

[pike007]

If there are 100 deer in the park, 20 hunters times 2 deer each is a 40% reduction. Pretty significant if you ask me.

Also, thanks Jordan, I was wondering if the hunt was going to happen. I look forward to seeing what people try and do to screw them up next week. Suicide bombers in the park?

Sorry I didnot have time this morning to get in my helicopter and count everyone.

007

[fafaflohi]

Tonight the news reported that only 2 deer have been harvested from today

[smerchly]

Tonight the news reported that only 2 deer have been harvested from today

I do not believe those numbers . If they said they killed 20 animals the tillies would freak . The printed form of the paper , on the front page said " Scouts to camp OUT during hunt" This is how they spin it ! They want people to think these little kids are sitting in tents while deadly razor arrows are flying all over the place . I have learned long ago to be very wary of the media . They are huge and powerful and will adhere to their very conservative party line .......

This controversy has two main elements .......

1. the people who do not want ANY hunting taking place

2. the people who object to the native only hunting

I believe the mnr/government knew there would be trouble and since this Idle No More thing is stirring up controversy , the government will get more support against the natives if this problem gets out of hand . And on the other hand .....by allowing the natives to have this hunt , they are tossing a plum (olive branch) to the natives to show them they still respect their rights .......I'm no expert (shrink) but I do believe there are motives for every move our illustrious government makes , and I don't trust them period !

[canadadude]

Native Hunting and Fishing is protectected by the Supreme court of Canada, this is why they are given the rights to hunt first, it is like the native commercial fishing on Lake Nippissing is given priority over sport fishing. This was explained to me by our local CO, the Supreme Courts of Canada have give the natives the first rights to hunt or fish a land protetected, we are next on the list. then out of country tags may be released. The way the Supreme courts of Canada see it we are still just guests, on lake Nippissing for example sport fishing will be abolished long before Native harvest will be so if you want to see Native netting gone be caefull what you wish for you will be gone first.You may dissagree but according to the Supreme Court who cares they make the laws and you need a revelution basically to change the Supreme Court,

[blairwelsh]

When Judges Die ... they are replaced.

In Canada, they are appointed.

Sometimes ... the gears take longer to grind, but eventually ... there is always allowance for change.

Be it "good or bad"... I dont know.

Politic is a dangerous game

[Dan Andrews]

listen I put up 2 deer enclosures in shorthills to keep deer away from browsing on planted white pine & other species to some what succesfull degree, Now here,s the deal it took 10 volunteers 2 days to protect 2 acres and it was alot of work, the devestation done by Deer in the area was overwhelming, the freaking park is infested with deer there like rats, they eat every tree planted and make reintroduction of native spieces a joke. The other thing was 4 days, 2 enclosures 10 people from MNR& Niagara conservation authority and not 1 stinking Tilley hat yahoo helping, we couldn't beg one of those dirt bags to help, the only thing we got was a thankyou, so what. At one time when I graduated from SSFC in the 82 I looked after short hills, it was a reserve at that time but slated to become a park and I personally know how much work I and we put into that park to put it where is today, I know every inch of that park and I don't think anybody on this board dragged more grape wire out of it then me. The cull is a much needed management plan in fact it should have been done earlier and it should continue untill populations are under controll. Trust me this 1 cull is not going to have a big effect, this is going to be an on going project

John I want to interview you. 905-321-8062

[Dan Andrews]

OK I haven't read all the posts yet. Nothing after page two actually but I can tell you and I did confirm it with the MNR Park Superintendent that the MNR made an error when issuing their bulletins.

• The MNR did NOT allow these natives to hunt this land.
  
• The MNR can not stop them if they wanted to
  
• The MNR are only ensuring this remains a safe hunt
  
• The natives are offering the MNR their co-operation by restricting the hunt to one corner of the park amongst other things
  

I see this MNR mistake as the spark that lit a lot of the controversy around this hunt. I am going to make contact with the Haundensaunee today if I can because I suspect they would support allowing ALL races to hunt this land during the regular season. I now believe the MNR made the same mistake when releasing their news release around Navy Island and I will be contacting the MNR next week to offer my help fixing the deer exclosures on Navy Island IF the natives agree to partner with us non-native hunters.

Again the MNR is NOT allowing this hunt nor did they contact or ask the aboriginals to do it. The indians said this is how it is, like it or lump it. The MNR liked it as do us hunters so they are co-opertaing with each other. It would be arrogant for the MNR to think they could stop it not that they would want to. So for all you white boys hating the natives right now, give it some more thought.

BTW even if the Indians partner with the rest of us to open the park to everyone it's not likely to happen. Firearms laws and Ontario Parks rules will be hard to change. For those who think it isn't ethical or safe to hunt a park just check out all the parks the NPCA lets us hunt and those parks never close during the hunt. It's all just a bunch of hoopla right now. Lets not feed the fire by falling for it

[Slevin]

I would like to be CALLED redneck not a WHITE BOY

[Dan Andrews]

No I was wrong!

Talked to the Haundensaunee spokesperson today. He never said he wouldn't want us to hunt it during regular season but did say that they consider hunting very dangerous and having everyone in the field at once is a bad idea. They hunt as a unit and everyone knows each other and where they are. Having the park to themselves during this hunt is what makes it special and affirms their treaty rights.

No the MNR didn't give them permission but the MNR has always wanted to manage the deer there and can't because the Ontario Parks (OP) won't allow it but seeing as OP doesn't have a say in the matter the MNR can use this opportunity.

I saw a lot of whacko's down there tonight. One guy from Niagara Action for Animals said he's not against killing some deer but thinks the "Park Rangers" should be doing it. Another guy was on a private horse farm on Holland Rd blowing an air horn. When he came out I asked if he realized he may be scaring deer to the hunters and he replied "Yes but a running deer is much harder to shoot than one that's standing still".

The farmers don't seem to want to get tied up in this at all. Anything they say will bring harsh criticism from one side or the other.

So I didn't get the answers I was expecting but I do think the Haundensaunee are prepared to work along with us on conservation project unlike the anti-hunters. The areas they have been hunting such as Navy Island and Hamilton park they will also be conducting some invasive species removal, tree planting etc. Not all first nations or Indian bands have rights to hunt shorthills. This isn't an Indian thing it's a Haundensaunee Nation thing.It's amazing what you can learn by actually making contact with different organizations and speaking respectably and try to understand. An open dialogue last a lot longer than a stone throwing.

​Personally I think we need to invite them to the sporting clubs some time after the hunt and get to know each other. They don't understand us much more than we understand them. It's time this changes

[pike007]

I agree Dan.

007

[smerchly]

Good perspective on the situation Dan , thanks for the info . I have spoken to my Indian friends before about fishing topics and worked with a few of them at GM .....all great guys . It looks like the anti hunter is doing the protesting there ....I hope the guy with the air horn doesn't scare his horses . They said they only got 3 deer yesterday.....hardly worth the time and effort ....... I have never heard of this band of Indians before ......lady next door is Tyendenaga from the Quinte area .

[Joe468]

Well said Dan well said. An this is one redneck that has no problem with them hunting the park. It's there country to begin with. Wish them the best of luck. It definitely would be interesting to here about there hunting track methods as I'm a tree stand bow hunter so I find it very interesting how they would go about a traditional native hunt. I work just around the corner from shorthills on Pelham rd at fire station three and have seen a lot of ignorant ppl driving back and forth to work. Yelling screaming about and issue that goes deeper and way beyond what gets read and herd about through the media. And even we get deer in behind our firehall yard at least four times a week. It's been the same 5 does two twin fawns that have stayed close to their mother since the spring. And as Dan said its the uneducated that are setting a bad name for us all. Communication and understanding is key in issues such as this. I enjoy my hunting as much as the next guy but let them hunt peacefully weather u agree to or not it's 2013 we should respect pols rights. Also I think it's important that as hunters we excercise respect to all hunters regardless of the situation and wish them luck as we all do to one another in their hunt.

[ron4blues]

Many people do not understand that the rights that native groups enjoy were extended in treaties with the British Crown (pre-1867) and with post-Confederation Canada (post-1867). With the British North America Act of 1867, treaties signed by the Crown became the responsibility of the Canadian government to enforce and protect. No municipal, provincial or territorial legislation can take precedence over these treaties, as they fall under federal jurisdiction.

Consider the definition of a "right" to be:

A law that transcends the power of legitimate authority, and governs the relationship between that legitimate authority and those subject to that authority.

There are two groups of rights:

POSITIVE RIGHTS, which require action on the part of the legitimate authority in question. For example, the right to a primary education requires the government to provide the means to obtain that education.

NEGATIVE RIGHTS, which require the legitimate authority in question to refrain from interfering with the activities entailed in that right. For example, the right to freedom of speech.

Finally consider that Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) both set out that everyone has the right to self-determination. These are UN documents, both ratified by Canada, and require the state to refrain from interfering in the culture and social activities of any group.

These covenants are, like treaties, legally binding documents which require the signatories to take various steps to ensure the rights of all people. Another document, the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was signed into effect in 2007, and finally ratified by Canada this past summer. This last document recognizes that Indigenous peoples the world over have been marginalized and exploited. It requires that signatory states take measures to protect the rights on Indigenous peoples, including treaty rights.

In short; the question of when and where natives can hunt, trap or fish is a matter that can only be addressed at the federal level.

[Dan Andrews]

I was going to finish that article tonight but one of the anti's has provided a different picture as to whether it is indeed treaty land and whether they had to request permission. It is getting more complex by the minute but it should be cut and dry. I also want to hear from Canadude if he'll wade in with me. I have a picture of your 5some I got tonight.

[Joe468]

Where was that picture taken Dan. We get that group i was talking about behind fire station 3 on Pelham rd. I understand that deer have a large area they roam. Be interested how far they are actually traveling.

[smerchly]

Joe.....there are plenty of deer all through the 12 Mile Creek valley , including the ravines that branch off , all the way to Port Dalhousie . I knew a guy who lived beside a ravine which is a stones throw from the Pen Center parking lot and has been feeding the deer in his back yard for years . I talked to one of the firemen at Pelham & Louth last year while on my way on my bike to fish the creek behind the fire station .

CKTB radio host had a woman protester on this morning who was quite angry at the hunt being allowed , saying let nature take it's course .She told the host there was blood everywhere & they slaughtered the deer on the spot like a bunch of savages . The host , John M., told her nature can be worse than shooting an animal with an arrow or gun & also told her she could be fined for harrasing the hunters with blow horns etc.She said she could live with a $90 fine & she will be back with others for next weeks hunt.

As we can see , this hunt , cull , harvest , deer reduction has caused a media frenzy . I agree there comes a point when a park has too much nearby housing that a hunt cannot take place safely unless it has very adequate police/mnr people to keep wanderers out . I do not believe any homes were threatened by this hunt . The question here for non-native hunters is , would they agree to the same safety measures , having police & the mnr involved ?

[Joe468]

Thanks Dan for the response. Ya I have seen deer all the way they thru the 12 mile creek valley which leads into short hills. Love fishing in the 12 mile one if Niagara's secrets for great fishing. Not sure if u said where bouts that picture as taken u posted. Be interested to see if it was the actual group

[pike007]

Seen deer tracks in notl today line 5 .

007

[canadadude]

What is it you want to know from me, I support a native hunt in short hills, I think this is the best option to regulate the population and it should be expanded. I do not support an open hunt for non- natives, I've dealt with the yay-hoos during the controlled shotgun hunt and it is a freaking war zone bunch of crap. The natives given the chance will have a regulated normal hunt and I think an organised cull of over populated animals, if the hunt is turned over to us it will end up a cluster [CENSORED] and will not come even come close to achieving the goals of the hunt.I know alot of you deer hunters would love the chance to hunt the shorthills, but you can understand that the leagisticts to put an organised hunt on would considerably limit any success, I mean you can't keep the yahoo's outa of your tree stands now.

To be honest this hunt has shown
not that hunting is a problem but how ignorant tree hugging persons, who have absolutly no knowledge of the enviroment seem to get front page news, spouting off there crap. These people have absolutly no idea about ecosystems and how controll measures may be needed in our area to preserve what is left of the natural area. They come off as friends of the enviroment yet build there 5,000 sq ft mansions and have there 3acre manicured lawns but god forbid somebody kills a deer and yet you all stole there home . I could go on for hours about this, the tree hugging community is all fine and dandy untill it threatens there lifestyle, then it's protest.