Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
smerchly

Short Hills Deer Hunt

Recommended Posts

Joe.....there are plenty of deer all through the 12 Mile Creek valley , including the ravines that branch off , all the way to Port Dalhousie . I knew a guy who lived beside a ravine which is a stones throw from the Pen Center parking lot and has been feeding the deer in his back yard for years . I talked to one of the firemen at Pelham & Louth last year while on my way on my bike to fish the creek behind the fire station .

CKTB radio host had a woman protester on this morning who was quite angry at the hunt being allowed , saying let nature take it's course .She told the host there was blood everywhere & they slaughtered the deer on the spot like a bunch of savages . The host , John M., told her nature can be worse than shooting an animal with an arrow or gun & also told her she could be fined for harrasing the hunters with blow horns etc.She said she could live with a $90 fine & she will be back with others for next weeks hunt.

As we can see , this hunt , cull , harvest , deer reduction has caused a media frenzy . I agree there comes a point when a park has too much nearby housing that a hunt cannot take place safely unless it has very adequate police/mnr people to keep wanderers out . I do not believe any homes were threatened by this hunt . The question here for non-native hunters is , would they agree to the same safety measures , having police & the mnr involved ?

again tree hugging crap and screw CKTB the useless hack bull crap station, talk about sensationalising , why do we not here the native point of view, but get some old hag who never seen an animal butchered, WTF she thinks they come out packaged in cling wrap, savages, .....while she puts her prime rib grown on a meat farm in the oven.The media and such on this issue just sickens me and worst enemy of the Short Hills park is not the natives but the ignorant, non educated tilley hat idiots that don't understand nature

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I was wrong!

Talked to the Haundensaunee spokesperson today. He never said he wouldn't want us to hunt it during regular season but did say that they consider hunting very dangerous and having everyone in the field at once is a bad idea. They hunt as a unit and everyone knows each other and where they are. Having the park to themselves during this hunt is what makes it special and affirms their treaty rights.

No the MNR didn't give them permission but the MNR has always wanted to manage the deer there and can't because the Ontario Parks (OP) won't allow it but seeing as OP doesn't have a say in the matter the MNR can use this opportunity.

I saw a lot of whacko's down there tonight. One guy from Niagara Action for Animals said he's not against killing some deer but thinks the "Park Rangers" should be doing it. Another guy was on a private horse farm on Holland Rd blowing an air horn. When he came out I asked if he realized he may be scaring deer to the hunters and he replied "Yes but a running deer is much harder to shoot than one that's standing still".

The farmers don't seem to want to get tied up in this at all. Anything they say will bring harsh criticism from one side or the other.

So I didn't get the answers I was expecting but I do think the Haundensaunee are prepared to work along with us on conservation project unlike the anti-hunters. The areas they have been hunting such as Navy Island and Hamilton park they will also be conducting some invasive species removal, tree planting etc. Not all first nations or Indian bands have rights to hunt shorthills. This isn't an Indian thing it's a Haundensaunee Nation thing.It's amazing what you can learn by actually making contact with different organizations and speaking respectably and try to understand. An open dialogue last a lot longer than a stone throwing.

​Personally I think we need to invite them to the sporting clubs some time after the hunt and get to know each other. They don't understand us much more than we understand them. It's time this changes

Dan, I couldn't have said it better, and on so many issues we have to work along side our native partners, gone are the times of throwing insults towards each other. In fact our native brothers are more for long term sustainability of our resources and it's time we worked with them. I agree they have different rights and such, but thats the way it is, the one thing is they agree on is sustainable rights weather it be fishing or hunting. We need to work with our native peoples to achieve this or we'll just throw it all out in a hand basket......probably a native basket. The stupid thing I see in so many communities is they blame one another when there both after the same goal, just work together. I see this happening now on lake Nippissing after years of blame the 2-sides are at least talking, mind you after a supreme court ruling that gave the natives rights to the fishery and that lodges are basically allowed.The thing is the natives are regulating there fishery, hired a biologist for managment, and are actualling managing there resource, have any of the lodges even come close to anything like that, yes they put a ruler in my ice hut last year....nice.Again I could go on for hours by all you would only hate me more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wanted at least one view from inside the park that sees a problem with the population. Someone who actually understands. That park however is run by people who answer to politicians who answer to the loudest squeaky wheel so nothings going to change anyway and that park will continue on it's journey to [CENSORED]. The native spokesperson made a huge mistake saying they would be deterred if there was too much protest. I told him he just turned it into a circus. Wait till next week. They've had more notice now!

BTW good point about not being able to keep the trash out of our stands now. Freaking dummies are down there trying to stop the hunt too. It's not the natives that are keeping us from managing the deer. The farmers haven't been too co-operative with the hunters either but who can blame them? We really have proven ourselves a menace.

I know I for one have made contact and have found some new conservation partners. :) . If there are other hunters that would enjoy a conservation partnership with these guys shoot me a pm with your 411

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should all move to the states where farmers are offering payments to hunters who kill off hogs and deer on their property :thx:

007

Edited by pike007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wanted at least one view from inside the park that sees a problem with the population. Someone who actually understands. That park however is run by people who answer to politicians who answer to the loudest squeaky wheel so nothings going to change anyway and that park will continue on it's journey to sh*tville. The native spokesperson made a huge mistake saying they would be deterred if there was too much protest. I told him he just turned it into a circus. Wait till next week. They've had more notice now!

BTW good point about not being able to keep the trash out of our stands now. Freaking dummies are down there trying to stop the hunt too. It's not the natives that are keeping us from managing the deer. The farmers haven't been too co-operative with the hunters either but who can blame them? We really have proven ourselves a menace.

I know I for one have made contact and have found some new conservation partners. :) . If there are other hunters that would enjoy a conservation partnership with these guys shoot me a pm with your 411

your right and the Bioligists and the MNR have the same point of view, we are all on the same page when it comes to managing the Shorthills, the frustrating part of the whole thing is we have to deal with the public, the tilley hats, the tree huggers.......the ones who don't understand enviroment, the ones who are in the press, in the media. This whole hunt is a perfect example of how tilley hat idiots have blown somthing way out of porportion . Unfortunatly our own MNR is in the same boat, the MNR today is simply an enforcment agency, there only job is to enforce laws as far as managing resources that has been left to public clubs and such. Simply said our government has given up on managing the resources, Ontarians have done an adquate job privatly despite the MNR but the fight continues

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well , if you had seen the CH Hamilton news at 6 pm they interviewed 2 farmers who say the deer pop.is out of control . One guy said the deer killed his whole pumpin crop by eating little holes in them or most of the pumpkins ,leaving him with a $5000 loss . The other farmer lost a big chunk of his Christmas tree crop , said the deer ate the bark and broke off many branches . There were shots of the destroyed pumpkins and the mangled trees . They should be able to shoot the deer on their land and sell the meat to help compensate for losses. One farmer said it is too late & they showed some videowith a group of about 15 deer ......This news report should be on very shortly again......

Edited by smerchly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not an ARA site but they are ARA friendly. Our local ARA group has finally come clean and said exactly what's on their mind. This is good to finally have some blunt honesty. I still think they're whack jobs but at least now everyone can see the truth about NAFA and make up their own mind. Love the comment section here :lol:

http://niagaraatlarge.com/2013/01/03/citizens-group-opposes-planned-deer-hunt-in-niagara-ontarios-short-hills-provincial-park/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about increase the length of the controlled shotgun hunt. Make it a month!!! Or open it all year for 1 year at least this way everyone can fill their expensive deer tag!

007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps this weekend would be a good time to go down to the shorthills with a video camera and talk to some of these protestors about the dihydrogen monoxide issue. If you can get enough of them on board, and even to sign a petition stating that "they are so concerned about the environment that they are both against the deer hunt and FOR the banning of dihydrogen monoxide": then we can prove that they really don't know much about the environment and probably shouldn't be there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not an ARA site but they are ARA friendly. Our local ARA group has finally come clean and said exactly what's on their mind. This is good to finally have some blunt honesty. I still think they're whack jobs but at least now everyone can see the truth about NAFA and make up their own mind. Love the comment section here :lol:

http://niagaraatlarge.com/2013/01/03/citizens-group-opposes-planned-deer-hunt-in-niagara-ontarios-short-hills-provincial-park/

I read the comments and almost spit my coffee out when the one person quoted as a reference Farley Mowatt's " Never Cry Wolf " . :lol: My favourite quote from him. " I never let facts get in the way of the truth. " :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HERE is more to STIR the POT

The aboriginal-only deer hunt at Short Hills Provincial Park will come with a price tag.

Thirteen unionized Ministry of Natural Resources employees were either paid overtime or given time off in lieu for the hours they put in keeping people out of the 1,800-acre park Saturday and Sunday.

Questions have been raised about who was paying for the policing costs of the Haudenonsaunee Confederacy’s deer harvest, which was held last weekend and again this Saturday and Sunday. The hunt came at the request of the First Nations, who were exercising their legal treaty rights to hunt on crown land.

The Ontario Provincial Police, Niagara Regional Police and MNR were all on site throughout the weekend keeping an eye on the First Nations hunters and protesters that gathered to voice their opinions against it.

Jolanta Kowalski, a spokeswoman for the MNR, said 20 employees were working on the weekend.

“Protecting public safety is our first priority, so that’s why the park was closed and why it will be closed again this coming weekend,” she said. “Staff were stationed at park access points and they also did patrols.”

Of the 20 MNR employees, 13 were unionized workers who will receive either overtime or time off and seven were managers, who won’t get any extra pay for their time, according to Kowalski.

“Public safety requires people when you have a huge park like this,” she said, adding that a similar number of staff members will be on site this weekend.

Kowalski said the Haudenosaunee community won’t be asked to pay for the extra labour costs.

The OPP, which has jurisdiction inside the park, had one officer on site Saturday. Staff Sgt. Jan Idzenga, who handles media relations for the Niagara Falls OPP detachment, was also at the park briefly Saturday, but was already scheduled to work because of the planned Idle No More protest at the Peace Bridge.

The other OPP officer was originally supposed to work a night shift, but came in during the day instead, so no overtime will have to be paid, Idzenga said.

The NRP also had numerous officers in the area.

“The Niagara Regional Police Service has assisted in ensuring road safety in the areas surrounding this event,” said Const. Derek Watson.

However, he said no overtime was being paid. “There has been no addition cost incurred,” he said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im guessing the tax payers (us) are paying for it. What else is new, we dont know where our tax money really goes anyway.People are not going to work for free, so you pay them.

007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HERE is more to STIR the POT

The aboriginal-only deer hunt at Short Hills Provincial Park will come with a price tag.

Thirteen unionized Ministry of Natural Resources employees were either paid overtime or given time off in lieu for the hours they put in keeping people out of the 1,800-acre park Saturday and Sunday.

Questions have been raised about who was paying for the policing costs of the Haudenonsaunee Confederacy’s deer harvest, which was held last weekend and again this Saturday and Sunday. The hunt came at the request of the First Nations, who were exercising their legal treaty rights to hunt on crown land.

The Ontario Provincial Police, Niagara Regional Police and MNR were all on site throughout the weekend keeping an eye on the First Nations hunters and protesters that gathered to voice their opinions against it.

Jolanta Kowalski, a spokeswoman for the MNR, said 20 employees were working on the weekend.

“Protecting public safety is our first priority, so that’s why the park was closed and why it will be closed again this coming weekend,” she said. “Staff were stationed at park access points and they also did patrols.”

Of the 20 MNR employees, 13 were unionized workers who will receive either overtime or time off and seven were managers, who won’t get any extra pay for their time, according to Kowalski.

“Public safety requires people when you have a huge park like this,” she said, adding that a similar number of staff members will be on site this weekend.

Kowalski said the Haudenosaunee community won’t be asked to pay for the extra labour costs.

The OPP, which has jurisdiction inside the park, had one officer on site Saturday. Staff Sgt. Jan Idzenga, who handles media relations for the Niagara Falls OPP detachment, was also at the park briefly Saturday, but was already scheduled to work because of the planned Idle No More protest at the Peace Bridge.

The other OPP officer was originally supposed to work a night shift, but came in during the day instead, so no overtime will have to be paid, Idzenga said.

The NRP also had numerous officers in the area.

“The Niagara Regional Police Service has assisted in ensuring road safety in the areas surrounding this event,” said Const. Derek Watson.

However, he said no overtime was being paid. “There has been no addition cost incurred,” he said.

this may get me banned, but are you serious.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be a good idea to quote your sources as I have for the opening post on this thread , just to confirm the read is another writers view on this . This weekend's hunt will be different since most of the snow is gone . The opposition may be out in full force since there has been so much hype created through the media . I'm sure if shotguns were used in the first place , many more deer would have been shot . If the count was really only 4 deer , the hunt will do zilch to help the park recover , or help the farmers who are losing crops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emotional rhetoric generally causes both sides of a debate to lose a lot of intellectual capacity and generally cause more problems than it solves. I offer for example union/company negotiations that sometimes get all out of proportion. Rational debate solves a lot more than emotional arguments. In my humble opinion.

As I see it, the Native hunt in the Shorthills Park is simply an aboriginal group exercising a legal right to conduct a hunt. I haven't seen any evidence that they are massacring the deer or using illegal methods to take the deer. It is not a matter of the MNR selecting the natives over the general hunting public for a deer cull - no matter how badly it is needed.

The MNR, Parks Service and the police do have an obligation to protect members of the public who are performing a legal activity - wheter it is a stike by a union or the Natives against the hunt by the Tilley Hatters who as a group generally use emotional rhetoric with a shred of rational thinking.

Yes, it is a severe pain in the butt area to think that this is a case of them having more rights to hunt than the general public but let's keep things in perspective. All the hoohaw at the park is a result of the Tilleys Hatters. They would be out there if we were legally in there if a hunt was allowed as was the case when the hunt was done at Long Point years ago. They don't seem to have a clue about proper animal management and the reality of nature.

Politicians and their fear of the Tilley Hatters and the sensationalism in the press for the sake of a story to increase readership are a problem here and for hunting and fishing issues. We and the MNR are usually the ones who suffer the consequences. There are a lot of good people in the MNR who are serious about game management and establishing a good balance between increasing our hunting and fishing opportunities and sustainable harvest. But with continued budget cuts and misallocation of the monies we supply through licence fees, etc. they are in a bad position to fulfill their mandate - witness the closing of hatcheries, reduction in CO numbers, et al.

As a group we definitely do not need infighting amongst ourselves. We can get enough agina from the antis. We need to continue to present sane rational arguments as individuals and through oranizations such as the OFAH to keep and hopefully expand our opportunities in the outdoors. Let's face it, we put more money and effort into enhancing nature than any of the Tilley Hatters. If I am correct, one story estimated that over 90% of hunter/fisherman monies went directly to conservation and managemet issues in the US whereas the opposite was true with PETA to the extent that the IRS was going to remove their charitable status.

If the issue at the Shorthills was a reduction of deer number for both the park and the surrounding areas, i.e. farmers, then I would be unhappy if the Native groups were given preference over us. I have no problem with the Natives exercising their hunting rights. I do have a huge problem with them not following the same harvest rules as we do. Unfortunately the enforcement of such regulation has to be given by the courts (lots of luck) and authority given to the appropriate agencies to enforce it. Just as there are poachers and hunters among us that abuse the privilege, there are probably those among the Native groups who do the same. I would like to think that they have the same goals as us - that there is a sustainable harvest using proper game and fish management techniques - so that we can enjoy this way of life for the foreseeable future.

I am reminded of a debate between Ted Nugent (the Motor City Madman) and an anti years ago. It was quite educational. The anti was ranting and raving spouting their usual litany of emotion and lack of rationale whereas Nugent was calm as a cucumber carefully giving facts and generally taking the moral high road. Guess who presented a better image to the public.

Politics and emotion need to be taken out of the equation. We need to continue to be the face of reason and facts in this debate. We don't need to show ourselves as divisive and fractured. A lot of antis troll forums such as ours and don't need to gain any evidence they can use to their advantage.

There are good arguments as why there should be a reduction in deer numbers in and around the Shorthills Park (and yes I know this will raise the hackles of those lucky buggers that have permission to hunt adjacent to the Parlk). I also realize that in this populated area with close proximity to Tilley Hat Central (Toronto) it will be a hard sell and not something politicians will want to do.

But this particular hunt is not the fault of the Natives but due to others as I have stated earlier. Let's give them the bad public image and spend our efforts in persuading the powers that be to put more intelligent thought into how we are going to handle game and fish management issues both locally and across the province.

Just my opinion. Now I have to go to a dark place with an appropriate beverage and try to figure out why I just did this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emotional rhetoric generally causes both sides of a debate to lose a lot of intellectual capacity and generally cause more problems than it solves. I offer for example union/company negotiations that sometimes get all out of proportion. Rational debate solves a lot more than emotional arguments. In my humble opinion.

As I see it, the Native hunt in the Shorthills Park is simply an aboriginal group exercising a legal right to conduct a hunt. I haven't seen any evidence that they are massacring the deer or using illegal methods to take the deer. It is not a matter of the MNR selecting the natives over the general hunting public for a deer cull - no matter how badly it is needed.

The MNR, Parks Service and the police do have an obligation to protect members of the public who are performing a legal activity - wheter it is a stike by a union or the Natives against the hunt by the Tilley Hatters who as a group generally use emotional rhetoric with a shred of rational thinking.

Yes, it is a severe pain in the butt area to think that this is a case of them having more rights to hunt than the general public but let's keep things in perspective. All the hoohaw at the park is a result of the Tilleys Hatters. They would be out there if we were legally in there if a hunt was allowed as was the case when the hunt was done at Long Point years ago. They don't seem to have a clue about proper animal management and the reality of nature.

Politicians and their fear of the Tilley Hatters and the sensationalism in the press for the sake of a story to increase readership are a problem here and for hunting and fishing issues. We and the MNR are usually the ones who suffer the consequences. There are a lot of good people in the MNR who are serious about game management and establishing a good balance between increasing our hunting and fishing opportunities and sustainable harvest. But with continued budget cuts and misallocation of the monies we supply through licence fees, etc. they are in a bad position to fulfill their mandate - witness the closing of hatcheries, reduction in CO numbers, et al.

As a group we definitely do not need infighting amongst ourselves. We can get enough agina from the antis. We need to continue to present sane rational arguments as individuals and through oranizations such as the OFAH to keep and hopefully expand our opportunities in the outdoors. Let's face it, we put more money and effort into enhancing nature than any of the Tilley Hatters. If I am correct, one story estimated that over 90% of hunter/fisherman monies went directly to conservation and managemet issues in the US whereas the opposite was true with PETA to the extent that the IRS was going to remove their charitable status.

If the issue at the Shorthills was a reduction of deer number for both the park and the surrounding areas, i.e. farmers, then I would be unhappy if the Native groups were given preference over us. I have no problem with the Natives exercising their hunting rights. I do have a huge problem with them not following the same harvest rules as we do. Unfortunately the enforcement of such regulation has to be given by the courts (lots of luck) and authority given to the appropriate agencies to enforce it. Just as there are poachers and hunters among us that abuse the privilege, there are probably those among the Native groups who do the same. I would like to think that they have the same goals as us - that there is a sustainable harvest using proper game and fish management techniques - so that we can enjoy this way of life for the foreseeable future.

I am reminded of a debate between Ted Nugent (the Motor City Madman) and an anti years ago. It was quite educational. The anti was ranting and raving spouting their usual litany of emotion and lack of rationale whereas Nugent was calm as a cucumber carefully giving facts and generally taking the moral high road. Guess who presented a better image to the public.

Politics and emotion need to be taken out of the equation. We need to continue to be the face of reason and facts in this debate. We don't need to show ourselves as divisive and fractured. A lot of antis troll forums such as ours and don't need to gain any evidence they can use to their advantage.

There are good arguments as why there should be a reduction in deer numbers in and around the Shorthills Park (and yes I know this will raise the hackles of those lucky buggers that have permission to hunt adjacent to the Parlk). I also realize that in this populated area with close proximity to Tilley Hat Central (Toronto) it will be a hard sell and not something politicians will want to do.

But this particular hunt is not the fault of the Natives but due to others as I have stated earlier. Let's give them the bad public image and spend our efforts in persuading the powers that be to put more intelligent thought into how we are going to handle game and fish management issues both locally and across the province.

Just my opinion. Now I have to go to a dark place with an appropriate beverage and try to figure out why I just did this.

DITTO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll ditto that too ....great insight into this topic . But , I take exception to one little item ......I do believe this has a lot to do with politics . The mnr is tied down to whatever they say , & would endure severe consequences if they said something against their boss . The government has their own little pow wow in their fancy board rooms with all their lawyers and "behavior" experts and predetermine what the public will say about the hunt . They have an agenda to fill , believe me . Can you tell I loath the corrupt governments we have in Canada these days ......... :deadhorse:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Double Ditto......

*Well said Coyote

*Smerch: There is Good & Evil (if you want to use those extremes in verbage) with our democracy - "ELECTED OFFICIALS"

Generally they are on 4 year terms. They have to try to "manage & implement" long term goals under short term fickleness and swaying public opinion.

My personal "opinion" on the MEMORIES of the general public nowadays ... is that there is NO MEMORY.

Just 'Sound bites", Emotional Twitter, Likes & Dislikes radom buttoms on Facebook etc

It's scary. People dont seem to retain info like you do anymore.

Its all about instantanious GOOGLE ... then .... move on.

SHAME.

Oh well .... Good to live in the moment.

This thread will be forgotton by next week

LOL

Time to go text what you had for dinner, your thoughts on the "Bieber" ...

or

Keep fighting the Good Fight.

Who knows, maybe reason and thought may actually come back in STYLE - one of these days

Edited by blair

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...