Whitetail Deer

[ron4blues]

This is what happens to wildlife populations when there are no apex predators in the area. Even if there were no humans around, an ecosystem could not support a population density of over one deer per hectare:

Hamilton Spectator Article

[Dan Andrews]

People feeding deer then bashing hunters for killing is so ignorant and arrogant. Anyone who grows up in an area and then witness the damage during a population explosion will have a different attitude. Yes they are cute and smart and even compassionate parents but they're also destructive in numbers and taste delicious.

[ron4blues]

For most people, there is a "disconnect" between them and the food procurement/processing industries. They can see no further than the styrofoam packaging.

I've tried explaining this to non-hunters/anglers, with varying success. Right now there are more deer in North America than at any previous time in history. Agriculture, railway, highway and power line right-of-ways and any clearing for development will attract deer. They are not creatures of the deep forest; rather, they congregate near easily accessible food. The steaks, broccoli and apples the "antis" buy from the supermarket come from farms and orchards built by human hands, and all are attractive to deer as easy sources of food.

At the same time, humans have driven off or killed the other predators that would help put downward pressure on the deer herd. So we have created an ideal environment for deer. The population explosion is a direct result of human activity.

A friend's comment on Facebook today says it all. He said (speaking of the First Nations)

"What is our resistance to listening to a culture that has thousands of years of experience regarding how to interact with our natural environments?"

There is the "disconnect." We are biological entities and must exploit our environment to survive. We do not sit outside of the environment and "interact" with it. We are part of the environment and must accept and assume our role in that environment. Our disconnected actions have created a situation. We are the only apex predator in the environment that can do anything about the situation. It is if anything, since we are "thinking" animals, our moral responsibility to step up and do what apex predators do.

[smerchly]

Farmers are not being taken care of by the governments . Farmers are a small group compared to city folks who have the numbers the government needs to get elected . A farm with 1000 acres doesn't pay nearly the tax if this land was used as a subdivision , complete with plazas etc etc . So , the farms will disappear , the trees and farmland will vanish and the wildlife will become a memory . It is called progress and we have to keep expanding in order to keep the money wheels turning . That , in a nut shell is what's behind all of this phoney crap about the deer menacing our city & county side . We can control the deer populations by hunting and letting nature do her part until one day , there will be no where for deer to roam in this area .

[ron4blues]

You make a good point, Smerch. And I agree with you to a point. The issue at hand is urban deer.

Take a look at a Google Maps satellite image of Hamilton and you'll be amazed at the amount of green space. I live on King Street near the Red Hill Valley, and even after the expressway was built a few years ago, it is not unusual to see deer in the small park across the street from my building; often a dozen or more at a time.

Most of the green space in Hamilton is prime deer habitat, but with more than one deer per hectare, something has got to give, and soon. I'm not just thinking of property damage (although it is an issue); rather, what will happen to those deer when the population density rises even higher? Right now in some areas, the density is 1.21 deer per hectare: that is 121 deer per square kilometer!

If we had to farm, forage and hunt our own food, could we survive if we only had a single hectare on which to do it? I would wager that we could not.

[smerchly]

The way it is now Coach is, we have the fattest deer in the land . They are getting some great farm grown food , from apples to soy beans . The problem is they still need some bush areas to sleep and ward off predators etc. , but it's the bush that is disappearing . The green space you have in Hamilton is nice to have , but it can only support so many deer . We are slowly paving over their habitat . Not long ago , I could look out my back door where the 10 acre field grew corn or just hay , & I would see deer and geese, mostly during the winter . Looking out my front window , there was over 10 acres of grapes . All of this land is now housing and the deer & geese have vanished . On a much larger scale , thousands of acres of land is being turned into suburbia each year & the deer are being corralled into smaller quarters . The only answer to me is cull .

[ron4blues]

We're on the same page, Smerch.

[davincan]

Cull...and learn to live with coyotes! I know several hunters that will shoot any coyote they see on site. I recently read about a study with findings that coyotes will remove up to 18% of a deer population through predation. Further, they tend to take the deer least desireable to the hunter; which are the young, the weak, the frail (starving), and the sick. Meaning they should probably be viewed as a valuable partner to the hunter on this particular front. Seems silly to kill an animal that can play a big part in controlling deer populations, and in a very natural way.

[ron4blues]

Cull...and learn to live with coyotes! I know several hunters that will shoot any coyote they see on site. I recently read about a study with findings that coyotes will remove up to 18% of a deer population through predation. Further, they tend to take the deer least desireable to the hunter; which are the young, the weak, the frail (starving), and the sick. Meaning they should probably be viewed as a valuable partner to the hunter on this particular front. Seems silly to kill an animal that can play a big part in controlling deer populations, and in a very natural way.

I can only partly agree with your argument. Coyotes do indeed prey on deer. The problem is that they are indescriminate predators and will go fo the easy pickings first. . . like domestic animals. Once a coyote has a taste for goat or beef, it will tend to come back for more.

Restoring another apex predator to control the deer herds would work, but then it would introduce an entirely different set of problems.

Lets not be that lady who swallowed the fly. If predation must take place to reduce the herd, it is best that we be the predator.

[Dan Andrews]

These bigger tweed coyotes are likely better at hunting deer then our native 25 pounders. I'm fine with that as long as they stay out of the urban areas. I also don't have as much problem with crop damage as I do habitat destruction. Deer eat delicate plants and when over populated can decimate the bottom 6 feet of a woodlot.

[FishyWishy]

I can only partly agree with your argument. Coyotes do indeed prey on deer. The problem is that they are indescriminate predators and will go fo the easy pickings first. . . like domestic animals. Once a coyote has a taste for goat or beef, it will tend to come back for more.

Restoring another apex predator to control the deer herds would work, but then it would introduce an entirely different set of problems.

Lets not be that lady who swallowed the fly. If predation must take place to reduce the herd, it is best that we be the predator.

COUGARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ninepointer]

Cull...and learn to live with coyotes! I know several hunters that will shoot any coyote they see on site. I recently read about a study with findings that coyotes will remove up to 18% of a deer population through predation. Further, they tend to take the deer least desireable to the hunter; which are the young, the weak, the frail (starving), and the sick. Meaning they should probably be viewed as a valuable partner to the hunter on this particular front. Seems silly to kill an animal that can play a big part in controlling deer populations, and in a very natural way.

I can appreciate your views Dave. They are consistent with the views of the general public, but are nonetheless superficial. Those hunters you mentioned will have no measureable impact on the overall coyote population. Hunting can however be effective dealing with a localized nuisance coyote problems (e.g. livestock predation, reduced fear of humans), that is until other coyotes fill the void.

As for deer and coyote populations, I think its fair to say that here in Niagara, both have both been on the high side for several years now.

In an undisturbed state, ecosystems and the predator/prey species within them, experience population booms & busts. However, we no longer have undistrubed ecosystems here. In Niagara that train left the station about 200 years ago when significant non-Native colonization started to occur. Is only gotten worse since then. We've altered the landscape, and inadvertantly created ideal conditions (fragmented forest cover, rich crop food sources) for the both deer and coyotes to thrive. But we've also built our communities and criss-crossed that landscape with roads; setting ourselves up for the inevitable collisions and other conflicts. The often touted "just leave nature alone" approach will no longer work. 200 years ago perhaps, but not now. All our modern wildlife management efforts are undertaken to mitigate the way in which our very presence has screwed up the ecosystem. At the same time we are trying to keep wildlife populations healthy and sustainable.

[spottedGARRR]

Sounds like a juggling act ;D

[fuillihc]

Here in NOTL the coyotes are definitely attacking the deer. I've had 2 deer carcases left around my property in the past two months. They seem to eat everything except the head, stomach, and legs. Its been real fun cleaning up after these things.

[Dan Andrews]

Here in NOTL the coyotes are definitely attacking the deer. I've had 2 deer carcases left around my property in the past two months. They seem to eat everything except the head, stomach, and legs. Its been real fun cleaning up after these things.

That sounds more like hunters to me. Coyotes will take everything away.

[ron4blues]

That sounds more like hunters to me. Coyotes will take everything away.

I agree. Coyotes are pretty thorough. There's seldom much left after one of their kills, unless they're interrupted in the middle of it.