Guest chilli Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 St Catharines Game and Fish Presidents Opinion Rob asked that someone else post this for him. I'm just a fisherman with an idea so like I said. All opinions are welcome. That's what I'm looking for. If anyone here is against this idea or like I've said before, has any idea why this is not a good idea, say so. I don't want to be the guy that rolls the "snowball" and gets everyone kicked out of Port. I'd rather be the guy who catches the record stealhead along the 406 I'm putting alot of my time into this and would appreciate your honesty. If no one agrees, it's on to the next project. Gotta stay busy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glowbug Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 Chilli you have asked for opinions whether for or against the fish ladder. Well I personaly am not against the idea I just can't see it as being a feesable one for a few reasons. I have walked my dog and riden my mountain bike from the hydro building on Lockhart Dr. all the way to Martindale rd. and Grapeview. I've also fished it for smallies.The only time that I 've found it to fishable is when the water level is low and the current is slow. This is also the only time when there are current breaks and eddies. This also the time with the most shore line access.When at full level and flow most of 12 mile creek is too fast and high for any amount of good access.Yes there is the couple of potentialy good spots the fast water at Wellandvale, the area at the fire training tower(but best here when water is down).After that there are open patches here and there on both sides of the creek and if the water level is high it's a really fast current. Those open patches between the trees and brush continue all the way up too the hydro property fences that are on both sides of the creek.The hydro area would be the best area for fishing but it's private property.The hydro owns the property on bothe sides of the creek east side end of lockhart dr. the west side bottom of power glen.Most of the time the water at full flow accept when there's a rowing reggate on or in the evenings limiting access and dealing with very fast currents.The creek above the hydro property is not that big and I don't know how big of a trout fishery it could sustain. Well Chille there you have my opinion on the issue at hand of the fish ladder in port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishin-nut Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 I agree with glowbug but want to add this and I think Rob McIntosh hit the nail on this one on his other post. If a fish latter was to go up you would have to fish so may feet down stream from one that would wipe out any fishing that takes place off of the rocks right up to where the wall begins and from the four falls up to the restaurant. I would have no problem with that , the problem with me would be who would monitor this latter during the spawning run, the MNR is usually busy with the hunt that time of year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perch man Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 Any one remember the WARDEN from fishontario.com? I think thet him and Chilli must be brothers. Thats just my @ cents. Tight lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perch man Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 Look back at most of his posts Tight lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chilli Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 I made a friendly jab at a Dunnville poster who always wears a straw hat and Perch man took exception. So now he's here causing a disturbance by cutting into a thread. I made another friendly jab after perchman was baraded by someone else on his knowledge and claimed he was full of sh*% about the auquaduct in Welland. Poor guy didn't even know I was trying to stick up for him. That's ok Perch. I'm sure you mean well. Now do you have an opinion on a fish ladder in Port D? That's what this thread is about. Feel free to start another thread if you want to cut me up. You and the Warden can say whatever you like. Ironic post by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perch man Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I was told that the rowing commity does not want the fish or people around the pond. One of the people told us that the people living along the pond dont want dead fish or the mess that comes with (some) fishermen. Other than the crappie hole in the back is there another spot for the fish to spawn. If hydro blocked fishing in the four falls in port because of dangerous water do you think thay will let 100 or so people fish 12 mile creak. there is a better chance of falling in on the 12 then in the 4 falls Tight lines If the fish will spawn up there somewhere I am all for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chilli Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Perchman. Your input on the ladder was exactly what I was looking for. After we have all the negatives and positives and let everyone know what we're thinking so they can get there input in, we'll make a decision as to whether or not to proceed. The whole idea is for those of us (like myself) who do not know the variables of the last attempts, to get educated, see what laws have changed, weigh popular oppinion against the opposition and see who's on board for funding. Also I'll put all the facts before everyone to make a final decision if I get that far. There's probably a major roadblock here somewhere. EG.-Maby I was given the wrong perameters for the no fish zone. So far the anglers are not as excited about the idea as I thought they would be. The St Catharines Game and Fish haven't got back to me yet but there is an election at the end of the month so I'll wait before I bother trying to talk with them.Parks and Rec (PD harbour masters) seem very pleased because it may fit into their future plans. The MNR has flat out said that at this stage it's a NO. Studies are needed as usual. There are still several groups I have to talk to because there are so many groups of interest being that this is such a large area effected - in bold and underlined due to the backbone of my inquiry. I myself am not pushing this too fast because as stated by a city official, "even if everyone is on board, it would take a minimum of 2 years to get the go. Each opposition we run into stalls it a little longer. The only thing I'd like to hurry right now is everyones oppinion because if I don't have enough support, then why should I bother. It's not so I can have more room to fish. I'm hoping that my idea will better the fishing, expand the range for spawning and chances of survival and make use of a waterway and trail system that is otherwise not utilizing it's full potential. To tell you guys the truth, I'm quickly beginning to think I'm one of few who sees this as an incredible opportunity and I'm stunned. ...........Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vidarling Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Hey Dan-chili, Is it possible that fish heading up the ladder would have a better chance in PD than heading up to the bailey bridge in Jordan? I think that it would be much nicer to watch a fish ladder than a couple of rotting ponds. I may even bring my sons there to watch without having to explain to them why that fellow over there is using treble hooks with no bait on them! With a proposed revamping of PD in the works it is probably an excellent idea for local anglers to educate themselves on this conservation possibility. Who knows if the local anglers are even being considered in the revamping plans? It is always nice to update old info and get current with an issue such as this and it may come in handy as the future unfolds. Great work so far, above and beyond the call of duty, as usual! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linz Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 My understanding is, the MNR will only put fish ladders up where they believe it will have a direct impact on the numbers of fish (trout) that are able to reproduce. An increase in areas that fishermen can catch a given speices of fish is only an indirect secondary factor at best. This is shown by the number of rivers and streams that have had fish ladders installed and still remain closed upstream of those ladders during the fall/winter/spring run(s). There are some exceptions, but only where it has been shown after the instalation of the fish ladder that there is a big enough fish population to allow an extended open season. I also don't think the MNR will build ladders for the benifit of Pacific salmon as their ability to reproduce in the Great Lakes has be shown to be almost nil even under the best of circumstances. So don't expect them to build a ladder in Port D without a lot of study. And even if they do it does not mean we will have more area to fish during the run. One side note, there is a resident brown & rainbow trout (as well as brooke) population in 12 mile creek. I'm not sure of the size of the population, but I have caught several of both speices from the creek over the years, usually while fishing for something else. My biggest was a 6lb rainbow thru the ice in front of the GrandStand a few years ago. A friend caught 2-12lb rainbow in the creek in Short Hills about 15 years ago while fishing for suckers. The fish are there, you just have to work at it. Too bad the season is closed until the end of April... Linz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chilli Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 The Ministry is arguing they don't want rainbows in there even though they stocked them years ago. Good point about the Pacific but where have all the Atlantics gone which are out of season downstream of the QEW right now? Hmmm . I wonder if this could benefit them? There are so few of them left, I bet most of us wouldn't know what we had if we caught one. Thank you Linz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linz Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I believe natural Atlantic salmon have been extinct in the great lakes since the 50' or 60's. A couple years back (1999?) the MNR began a Atlantic stocking program on the Credit River. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I do know that far less adult fish returned to the river than they had predicted. They had expected something like 3500 adults to return, but I think the actual number that showed was less than 1000, possibly 300. They were very dissapointed with the return, but I don't know if the program still continues. Atlantic salmon are very easly effected by pollution and between the chemicals that come down the old canal off Oakdale Ave from the paper mill and the PCB's from Lake Gibson, I'd imagine they'd have a hard time in 12 Mile Creek. But I'm no biologist... Linz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steelheader Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Interesting points being made. I initially liked the idea of a fish ladder because I thought it might help improve fish populations in the upper 12. But the objections and concerns that have been brought up seem valid too. The fish ladder, it seems, is a means to an end: improve the fishing in the upper 12. Are there other ways to reach that goal without a fish ladder? What about stocking programs, habitat alteration, improved access points? Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigfish1965 Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I think we should try and push the MNR into doing a study first. Trying to jump straight to the final product may be dismissed so handily that no one really even gives the idea much though on the governmnet side. If we can get them to look at it as a study project we may find more answers and the information to proceed or to foregt about it. The MNR has been pushing restoration of waterways. This would be a step into that direction since the interference of man caused this current set up. I for one don't give a rats pattootey what the rowers want. They harrass fishermen out there enough (no they do not have any authority to stop you from launching a canoe to fish the pond...you just can't go into their marked race lanes). There are, IMHO, enough good points to warrant a study. I know governments study crap to death, but we need to decide if this is a wise move ecologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IBC Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 well noone technically owns the water .... however they have limited boating access because there is to be no wake on the rowing course for the safety of the rowers. Rowing on martindale is hard enough with the wind from a few past experiences ... i would love to get a solid sardine can of a boat and put a trolling motor on it and toss it in somewhere like richardsons creek and motor out to under the QEW where I have heard of walleye being caught, the goal however would be to get into some of those pike and muskie (assuming the rumors are true) that exist in that area. IBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IBC Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 jaycee gardens if you gots a 4X4 or a light boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chilli Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I totally agree with bigfish. I don't really appreciate paying for study after study but if it leads to something better for a wasted resource like the Twelve then I'm in. I'd love to see it filled with walleye. I wonder if scientists could bring back the blues. As for the pond, the Parks n Rec has told me that part of the enhanced fishing in the Community Development Strategy includes promoting the largemouth bass fishery in Martindale Pond. I think few people know you're aloud to put unmotorized craft in there. I couldn't believe it at first due to the danger of getting too close to the dam but it was later comfirmed by an elder Gent in Port D named Jerry from the SCGF. Bigfish, you seem to have a little more political savvy then I and I could use your help. Do you think there is a way to get the MNR to at least relook at the whole thing. I can share the info I've gained so far including the Bad points. Things have changed since the last time and stocking may be an answer. I would still love to see bows in those rapids. Does anyone think stocking it with bows is a better idea then letting the salmon up there? Would you stray from Port for your favourite sport? Do you think it would bring in tourists to sport fish or would they all just head down stream through the turbines. (the fish that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IBC Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Stocking vs Fish ladder -The stocking idea could be presented to the st. catharines game and fish, it might be a little more viable based on a cost perspective. If you allow salmon up there, there will be the snaggers dotting the shoreline probably. Tourists in to fish? -I do not see there being a major impact until it was a proven hotbed for trout. I would stray from Port for sure. Once the 12 was shown to have good fishing, people would come. Most likely on day trips. Fish in the turbines? -Probably would lose many to them. But at the same time if they established their population it would not matter. ----------- As well, jsut some observations .... salmon fishermen are pigs. A general obsevation. A few of the areas I like are just littered with line, timmies cups, hooks, and the containers those 10 pound salmon snagging spoons come in. Come next spring, the area I am thinking of will be clean, all through the summer for the smallies and cats, and then the salmon will come in and BANG a mess once more ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigfish1965 Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 As a former rower, its the lane usage that is controlled by rower and coach boats that follow the usage pattern. Throw in a couple of boats fishing on a hotspot in lanes 3 and 4 at the 1500 m pylon and you can have many accidents!Sometimes they'll go through the back back instead of straight up (extra mileage)....Scullers usually use the sheltered area when too rough to practice on the main course. So this may be only SLIGHTLY more a safety concern than an inconvienience for BOTH parties. There is a boat launch on Henley Island, but I highly doubt they'd let fishermen use it. I think the Island is a pretty good fishing area, but definately at the discretion of the owners and the rowing club alumni since its their property, but so far shorefishing hasn't been discouraged. This is where the cartopper comes in. You could "launch" at Renee Park (allowable?) otherwise there is no other convienient spot to do it from. 2679[/snapback] The rowing club leases the LANEWAYS of the race course only and has no jurisdiction or right of protest to anyone using any other part of the bay in any way. One may NOT cross the lanes if using a boat to fish...go around! Those practicing have the same rights and responsibilites to other boaters as they would on any other waterway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cplummer Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Great idea installing a fish ladder .Years back we used to lift the browns over the falls so they could spawn above.. cliff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steelheader Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 As well, jsut some observations .... salmon fishermen are pigs. A general obsevation. A few of the areas I like are just littered with line, timmies cups, hooks, and the containers those 10 pound salmon snagging spoons come in. Come next spring, the area I am thinking of will be clean, all through the summer for the smallies and cats, and then the salmon will come in and BANG a mess once more ... 2690[/snapback] I suppose this is probably because a lot of the guys who fish for salmon aren't hardcore anglers. They come out of the woodwork for 6 weeks in fall, get their fix, and then you never see them again till next year. I'm just guessing of course, but that's my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 i find it to be the same way steelhearder... see the guys for a weeks and then they're done.... especially goes for bailey's bridge, don't know if anyone has been down there recently or not but it's alot worse there than it is anywhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chilli Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 If you'd like a good (free) map of the system, drop in to the Parks and Rec across from the fairview mall liquor store and grab these two pamplets. "Port Dalhousie Harbour Walkway" and "the St Catharines Trail System" There in the greeting area along with several other pamplets. Oh and I might suggest not admitting to transporting fish over the dam. It's illegal and the MNR has been notified of this thread. I've talked to several other people who did the same thing but they were telling me, not everybody. I remember years ago the SC Standard had a front page artical on this young dude who caught a very large salmon under the Glendale bridge. Now we know how it got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steelheader Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Does anyone think stocking it with bows is a better idea then letting the salmon up there? Would you stray from Port for your favourite sport? Do you think it would bring in tourists to sport fish or would they all just head down stream through the turbines. (the fish that is) 2686[/snapback] Well, I'm not that into salmon anyway...bows would appeal to me more. I think the river would support a stocked population. I think adding walleye would be great too. I'd rather see smallies in the river, but that would require habitat alteration. I think you could have a good walleye population in the river without changing a thing. I'd still fish Port for the salmon and trout in fall, but it would be nice to be able to fish some spots on the 12 for bows and walleyes and bass. If the access is improved, and we get a good fishery up and running, I think it would attract tourists. They're already coming to the NIagara region - why not draw them to St. Catharines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 If a ladder was put at port, wouldn't the fish going up through it all die on theirway back down because of the power turbines right above the dam? If this is supposed to increase populations, I think it will just diminish them and decrease the catch percentage at dalhousie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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